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35:14-16 - Elihu's words are still quite condemnatory, but, I suspect, were said with a different and more humble attitude and tone of voice, so that Job can accept them. He does not condemn Job's 'previous sin'. Instead he condemns the attitude of bitterness that Job has developed toward God during this trial. It is this that Job must address in order to restore his position with his creator.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
Elihu continues
35:2 'my righteousness is more than God's draws on Job in 10:7
35:3 'what advantage ...' draws on Job in 9:22
and so on. Elihu draws heavily on Jobs words in his earlier speeches. Your marginal references and memory will help you notice many more quotations from Job's earlier words.
Elihu continues
And now he ventures to be Gods spokesman.
He tells Job that God does listen to and look upon the righteous but will not tolerate the wicked.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
36:1-4 - See how Elihu gives God the glory. It is this aspect of what he has to say which makes his words hold where the other 'friends' words didn't.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
35:13 In saying 'surely God will not hear vanity' Elihu is implying that Job was vain. Though notice he does not actually make the accusation. He leaves Job to draw his own conclusions. This is an evil way of speaking. If the words are questions then Elihu could easily say 'you are misunderstanding me.' Do we ever talk like this?
36:6-7 This is not strictly correct. The wicked do prosper and the righteous suffer. Given this error in Elihu's reasoning we have to conclude that even though he claimed to be speaking on behalf of God he was not inspired by God to speak as he did.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
35:15 And now Elihu asserts that God is angry with Job. Again we must be careful if we choose to form a judgement about what God thinks about anyone else.
36:2 Having (35:15) claimed to know what God thought about Job Elihu now proceeds to speak as if he is the oracle of God - but his words are his own!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
Job 35:9-13. Elihu is showing in this speech that righteousness does profit a man, but, there are exceptions:
Some only cry unto God when they are in trouble.
At other times they have no interest in Him.
They only pray to get something out of God.
God will not answer this type of plea.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to John
35:14-16 We read in these verses the concluding rebuke of Job by Elihu. How could Job expect God to answer him? and that his charges against God placed him in company of sinners.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
In Job 36:18,19 Elihu speaks of riches not being able to save the sinner. The Judge will not be impressed by our possessions. As Bro Cyril Tennant says (The Book of Job CMPA 1991 p101), "A ransom is only possible because God wills it."
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to David
36:8-12 If they be afflicted, it is no proof that they are hypocrites, as the friends of Job maintain, or that God disregards them, and is indifferent whether men are good or bad, as Job asserts: God is thereby "disciplining them" and "showing them their sins", and if they bow in a correct spirit under God's visiting hand, the greatest blessings ever are sure to come. 1Cor 2:9
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
Elihu explains the treatment that Yahweh gives to the wicked and the righteous (36:6,7). The life of the wicked is not saved; they die never to see the light of day again. However, the poor (humble) (see Matt 5:3) are given that right (privilege). These righteous will be established forever (Matt 13:43).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
35:4 In saying ‘thy companions …’ Elihu is claiming to both answer Job and also his friends – implying that he was of the opinion that they were in error and that he would be able to sort them out as well!
36:3 In saying that he ascribes righteousness to God Elihu is attacking Job who claimed to be righteous himself a number of times in his speeches - Job 9:15 etc:
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
36:4 Whilst Elihu claims his words ‘shall not be false’ he has already – Job 34:8 – uttered one falsehood.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
Elihu exhibits some inconsistencies. He presumes to have perfect knowledge and to speak for Yahweh (36:2,4). And yet, he admits that Yahweh is beyond his understanding (36:26). Elihu seems not to recognize that Yahweh is affected by man's righteousness (35:7,8). Yahweh created all things for His pleasure (Rev 4:11). How do things please Yahweh? They respond in appearance and behaviour to the way the creator programmed them. With all living things, other than humans, this is automatic. But, humans have been given greater intelligence, a moral code, and free-will. They can choose to obey or disobey Yahweh's commands. If one chooses to obey Yahweh, and stays on that course, then that person is righteous. Challenges on the road of life might cause that person to fall down from time to time, but if he/she gets up and continues, then righteousness is maintained (Prov 24:16). Note that righteousness is not perfection (which will only be attained in the Kingdom of God (1Cor 15:50-54)). Yahweh loves righteousness and those who choose to practice it (Psa 11:7).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Michael
35:3 “For thou hast said …” shows that Elihu is responding exactly to what Job has said. Whilst we do not see many exact quotations of the words that Job used we realise that Elihu is responding to the sentiments bound up in the words that Job used.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
36:7 Elihu concedes that Yahweh is interested in those who are righteous. And, Yahweh will test the righteous (Psa 11:5).
36:21 Elihu warns Job to accept Yahweh's trial and not to sin. The sin is to desire death so as to circumvent the trial. Job wished for death (3:3-5). He had yet to learn that Yahweh tries those whom He loves (Heb 12:6); and that Yahweh will not try a person beyond his/her ability. The lessons for Job are also lessons for us.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
36:16-18 Elihu seems to be saying that God is capricious and that Job should be careful lest God just punishes him. However God is not capricious. He works by consistent principles so Elihu seems to not correctly understand God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
35:6-7 Elihu’s presumption that Job’s behaviour has no impact upon God is clearly false. God is concerned with what we do.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
III. Elihu's third speech - righteousness profiteth a man.
Job 35:1-3 - Elihu's summary of Job's complaint: V2 - Job never directly stated his righteousness exceeded God's but he inferred it (Job 9:17;10:7;19:6;27:2;40:8); V3 - when in the depths of depression Job inferred there was no profit in doing right (Job 9:22-24,29-31;10:3,15).
Job 35:4-8 - Elihu's answer to Job: V6-7 - God is not hurt by our sins or blessed by our righteousness (Job 22:2-3;41:11;Rom 11:35), man profits from his behaviour (Prov 8:35-36;9:12), God does gain pleasure in righteousness (Isa 66:2), but righteous man considers himself an unprofitable servant (Luke 17:10); V8 - wickedness and righteousness only effects Job and other humans (Prov 14:34).
Job 35:9-13 - why God does not always answer prayer: V9 - people will cry out to God when they are suffering oppression; V10 - at other times they show no interest in God, they don't turn to God even though He has the ability to bring relief sufficient to induce song in their darkest hour (Psa 42:8); V11 - man should not respond in a thoughtless instinctive animalisation way; V12 - God does not answer prayer rooted in human 'pride'<1347>; V13 - God does not answer prayer rooted in human 'vanity'<7723> (God responds to the prayer of the righteous James 5:16, those who ask with proper motives James 4:3; it can be argued Elihu's criticisms do not apply to Job or his question as to why the affliction started in the first place).
Job 35:14-16 - Elihu's final rebuke of Job: V14 - God's righteousness must be exalted not Job's or anybody else's - though you say you can't see God (Job 23:8), He will act justly, therefore 'trust'<2342> in Him (Mic 7:7,9); V15 - God's lack of response isn't indifference, He is holding back His anger, God chooses His own time to punish and bless; V16 - Job opens his mouth 'in vain'<1892>; he multiplieth words without 'knowledge'<1847> (i.e. if Job better understood God's ways he would not have expressed such opinions (Job 38:2).
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Charles
IV. Elihu's fourth speech.
A. adversity is remedial.
Job 36:1-4 - Elihu introduces his final speech: V2 - "I have 'yet'<5750> to speak on God's behalf" (i.e. Elihu has more things to say that will vindicate God); V3 - "...will ascribe righteousness to my Maker" (reinforced by Paul - Rom 9:14); V3-4 - "...fetcheth my knowledge from afar...my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee" (this seems to suggest arrogance - note Peter Forbes' 2007 comments).
Job 36:5-15 - "God is mighty" - His justice declares this: V5 - God is mighty in strength and "wisdom"<3820> and He "despiseth"<3988> not any (Job asked if God despised mankind Job 10:3 - God shows no partiality to mankind Job 34:19); V6 - Job (Job 21:7-9) notes exact retribution is not observed, but Elihu says God does not preserve the wicked (i.e. no immortal soul eternally tortured) and does right to the "poor"<6041> but gives no time frame on the execution of God's judgements (Psa 72:4;Isa 11:4;2Pet 2:9); V7 - the righteous He will "establish"<3427> "for ever"<5331>; V8-9 - affliction is a tool of instruction that humbles and prepares the righteous to receive enlightenment from God of their "transgressions"<6588> (Job 33:14,19,29,30;34:31-32;Job 36:22 affliction used not as a means of retribution is more accurate than the prevailing belief in exact retribution Job 4:7,8,19,20 - Job 7:20;13:23;14:17 Job already acknowledged transgressions); V10-12 - if people turn away from sin and obey and serve they will spend their days in "prosperity"<2896>, but if not they will perish without understanding (Rom 2:7-9 - Job 36:11is not always true Ecc 8:14); V13 - "hypocrites"<2611> in "heart"<3820> will not cry (to God) for help, choosing instead to respond with anger; V14 - "'They'<5315> die in youth, and their life is among the 'unclean'<6945>" (some feel this refers to the reason or mind spiritually dying in youth unless developed spiritually); V15 - deliverance by affliction by making the "poor"<6041> more receptive to instruction.
Job 36:16-21 - therefore, God should be feared: according to The Education of Job by David Baird, P253 "The original Hebrew is extraordinarily vague...".
B. God is omnipotent.
Job 36:22-25 - "God is powerful" - who can accuse Him? V22 - God is the greatest teacher (other teachers Job 8:8-10;12:7-8); V23 - nobody can tell God what to do or truthfully accuse Him of doing wrong (Isa 40:13-14;Rom 11:34;1Cor 2:16); V24 - man should laud the works of God; V25 - with finite minds people can only behold/comprehend the workings of God from afar.
Job 36:26-33 - "God is great" - He is beyond our comprehension: V26 - "...God is 'great'<7689>, and we 'know'<3045> him not..." (God's greatness is beyond our comprehension) - the number of God's years can't be calculated; V27-28 - a scientifically accurate portrayal of how God forms rain - NASB "For he draws up the drops of water, They distil rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down..."; V29 - "...noise of his 'tabernacle'<5521>"; V31 - God uses the elements of the weather to both judge (Job 38:22-23) and bless the people (Job 38:26-27).
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Charles
35:16 Elihu is most condemnatory of Job’s words. All job has said, Elihu says, are ‘words without knowledge’. What a criticism. But was it true? Can a man that is righteous as Job was be so astray from God in his speech?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
36:19 In asking “will he esteem thy riches?” Elihu seems to be assuming that Job placed confidence in his possessions. It doesn’t seem, from the way in which Job has spoken, that this was the case.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
THE BEST TEACHER
"God is exalted in power. Who is a teacher like him?"(Job 36:22)
I could have listened to hundreds of talks about putting God first in my life, and I probably would have agreed with everything they said. But it wasn't until God took me in hand over a period of about three years that I really began to learn what it meant to put God first and to give him the place of honour in my life. No teacher could have taught me that so patiently and so effectively as God taught it to me.
I have never been to university, and neither have I had much education since I left school when I was seventeen, but since that time God has been a teacher to me, giving me insights and teaching me lessons I often didn't even think I needed to learn. What an amazing teacher he is! He often takes one lesson at a time, keeping on at it until he is satisfied. Then he will move on to another. And they are the important things in life that he covers - relating to other people, growing the fruit of the spirit, wisdom, developing vision, and being able to hear his voice.
So let's both ask and allow God to be our teacher. Years at university won't compare with the classroom of God. The lessons might be painful and sometimes unpleasant, but they will be the best for us. Who is a teacher like him?
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Robert
36:9-10 Elihu is contrasting Job with others suffering affliction. He says that whilst others don’t complain to God that is exactly what Job has done.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
36:26 Is it true to say that Job did not know God? God certainly knew Job and stated that Job was “perfect” – Job 1:8 - which requires that Job did, in fact, know God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
Humility in adversity
One of the most vivid memories I have of school is of a strong boy in our class. I must have said something disrespectful, because he grabbed two of my fingers and started to bend them. I told him it hurt. He kept on going. I told him to stop. He kept bending them. I cried in pain. He didn't let go. Now this boy was known as someone not to be messed with because he was particularly big and strong for his age, but he wasn't normally mean. He didn't fight, didn't pick on other kids, didn't bully anyone. Nevertheless I thought he would never stop. Then he said,
"Why don't you give up?"
It had never occurred to me that to say "I give up" was all he wanted to hear. I said the words and he released me immediately. Perhaps he had just been asserting his authority in that way that boys sometimes do. He had been waiting for some signal of humility. I sometimes think back on the incident and wonder how long he would have been willing to keep it up.
So many times in my short life I have seen brothers and sisters in great affliction who do not appear to make the link between their affliction and God. It is as if God is bending their fingers, waiting for them to give up, to be humbled.
Elihu says this about God "He tells them their work and their transgressions -- that they have acted defiantly", and at that point we have a choice. Do we "obey and serve Him" (36:11) or do we "not obey, and die without knowledge"? (see Job 36:8-13).
For those that are defiant in the face of adversity the adversity sometimes just goes on and on:
"But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; they do not cry for help when He binds them"
Those who humble themselves before God and cry out for help are delivered;
"He delivers the poor in their affliction... He would have brought you out of dire distress."
Elihu correctly informs Job that if it weren't for his complaint and accusations against God, his trials would have been over by now. By being defiant Job had lengthened and deepened his own suffering.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Rob
36:2 “Suffer me …” Elihu seems to be conciliatory. However he then appeals to his authority – he claims to be speaking on God’s behalf. It would have been better to simply lay out Bible teaching rather than claim to be an authority. A lesson we might learn when in discussion with others with who we are at variance.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
35:2-3 Whilst it is clear that Elihu was able to quote what Job had said back to him one wonders whether that is the best approach. Elihu is confronting Job rather than encouraging him to think about his position. Elihu might have proved his point but it did not have the effect Elihu desired. We must always think carefully about the outcome we are looking for in a discussion and try to present our reasoning in such a way that our desired outcome is achieved.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
36:29 Elihu appeals to the wonder of creation to questions whether anyone understands how it all works. Of course no man does. Sadly Elihu is using this argument, not to highlight God’s majesty bur rather to highlight the smallness of Job’s understanding.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
36:3 There are a number of times in the book of Job that job’s words are re-presented to him. What we should learn from this is that what we say reflects how we think and we have to live with the consequences of what we say. This should help us to be careful about what we say!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
36:2 It may well be, when we are speaking with fellow believers who are in error, that we are speaking words that God has said. Rather than just claiming to be speaking God’s word might it be better just to invite the one being spoken to that they might consider a passage of scripture? This way the mind is directed exactly where it should be – in the written words of God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
36:31 it is clear that Elihu appreciated that it was God who fed the animals. That God is continually involved in maintain His creation. Do we share that view?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
36:31 It is clear that Elihu appreciated that it was God who fed the animals. That God is continually involved in maintain His creation. Do we share that view?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
35:2 Is there any evidence that Job claimed that he was more righteous than God?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
36:2 We would never think to claim that we were speaking on God’s behalf would we? But consider for a moment the sort of things we might say which is much the same as the claim that Elihu made. Consider “Paul mean to say”. Or “Actually this passage should say” both phrases I have heard from fellow believers more than once to seek to modify what the text of Scripture says.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
34:2 Viewing Elihu’s words from the position of the three friends it would be very easy to see what Elihu was saying was a veiled criticism of all that they had said.
It might have been that Elihu had some valuable insights to offer. However he, potentially, alienated the friends before he even started.
A lesson for us. We should weigh carefully all that we say and really avoid anything that might potentially alienate or create a barrier with the one we are speaking with.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
36:4 We should never have to actually claim that what we were saying was not “false”.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
v.13 talks of casting away the 30 pieces of silver to the potter in the temple, a clear parallel with the actions of Judas when he realised the enormity of his sin (Matt.27:3-12). Maybe we should look for other parallels with this time at the end of the fulfilment of the purpose of God in Jesus.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
11:5 for I am rich Hosea 12:8
11:8 in one month Hosea 5:7
11:17 his arms shall be clean dried up 1 Kings 13:4
11:5 'I am rich ...' reflects the thoughts of Ephraim Hosea 12:8 but she did not know that she was 'miserable, poor and naked and' Revelation 3:17 This self delusion which carried on into the captivity separates from God. It can be a problem for ourselves as can be seen from Jesus comment in Revelation 3:17. Spiritual richness is not measured in fleshly terms. Those who are 'rich towards God' demonstrate this richness in their manner of life.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.8,9 - The shepherds of the flock are condemned as we have seen before. We each have the job of leading the flock - doing our bit towards the exhorting of the whole, so let us beware that we do not fall into condemnation as these leaders did. The condemnation of the leader is not so much that he goes astray, but that he leads others to do the same. This is a great sin.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
We realise that Matthew quotes part of Zech 11:12 when speaking of the betrayal of Jesus by Judas. However, as the table below shows, the language of this area of Zechariah is very much the basis for the language of Matthew.
for my price thirty pieces of silver
|
Matt 26:15 | |
potter
|
Matt 27:7 | |
cast them
|
Matt 27:5 | |
House of the Lord
|
Matt 27:5 |
The quotation that Matthew makes is not a casual use of Scripture. Rather his is drawing on a theme in Zechariah
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
11:6 And so, even though the threat of the surrounding nations will be removed as we saw in the precious chapter the prophet continues to speak of another destruction of Jerusalem.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
Zech 11:15-17. Reference is made to both a foolish shepherd and an idol shepherd. This we would suggest is the same leader. This shepherd we see will be completely overthrown, losing his arm will leave him useless in battle, and the loose of an eye will certainly leave him in the category of the blind leading the blind. The foolish or idol shepherd will be rendered powerless and the sheep will be converted to Christ “The Good Shepherd”
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to John
11:1 Again we have 'fire' of judgment like we saw in the prophecy of Amos - a recurring theme speaking of the judgements of God
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
SHEPHERD FOR GOD
Zechariah was given the task of pasturing God's flock, the returned exiles of Judah. Zechariah was the man God chose for the job because he had the right spirit in him, because he cared about God's people, was devoted to God, honest and truthful.
Previously God had spoken against the people who were shepherding his flock by saying that he was angry with them because they only cared for themselves and not for the sheep. Under Zechariah's influence these worthless shepherds were cast out from their positions. He said, "In one month I got rid of the three shepherds." (Zech 11:8) Zechariah did what was best for the flock. His actions might have seemed harsh, but through them the whole flock would be brought back to God and away from those who only wanted to use them for their own advantage.
Human nature does not appreciate God's ways. We read, "The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them and said, 'I will not be your shepherd.'" (v.8-9) Even though Zechariah was the shepherd God had chosen to lead the people in his ways, they detested him.
How do we respond to people like Zechariah who take us out of our comfort zones and challenge us to change for God? And if we are leaders of God's people, we need to ask ourselves if we are telling the people what they want to hear because it is easier, or are we speaking the truth in love no matter what the consequences?
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Robert
V.1 The cedar was used as a symbol of the royal house of Judah (Eze 17:3; 4; 12). As the king of trees it sometimes stood for pride (Isa 2:13), which could be reduced to nothing with a few blows of an axe (Isa 10:33-34). It was a particularly apt symbol for foreign nations which had the shameful boldness to reckon themselves independent of God.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
The shepherds of v.3 are forces external to Israel (like the shepherds in yesterday's reading). However, the shepherds of subsequent verses mostly have to do with Israel. Largely, this chapter is talking about the role of Zechariah as Israel's shepherd in which he mirrors Christ as the shepherd of Israel (both natural and spiritual). Zechariah was rejected by Israel just as Jesus was. Zechariah was pushed around by Israel, and his insulting wages (v.12) were the same as a slave who had been pushed around (Exo 21:32). Jesus was betrayed for the same amount (vs.12,13). After Zechariah's rejection, Yahweh told him to take on the role of a false shepherd who would bring destruction (vs.15-17). Zechariah had to dispense with three other leaders of Israel (shepherds v.8) who were not doing their job properly. Jesus condemned the three leading elements of His day: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
Israel had been led astray. Their shepherds had not fed them the spiritual diet they so badly needed. In today’s chapter the prophet took two sticks, possibly shepherd’s crooks, and called one Beauty and the other Bands. He then acted the part of a good shepherd, and sacked three more experienced shepherds. This caused very bad feeling. Then he became an example of his Righteous God, and he broke both sticks. No more beauty, no more bands or unity. After he had broken his first stick the people realised that this word was of God (Zech 11:11). They paid him his wages, (30 pieces of silver), which he was told not to keep, but to cast it to the potter – there shouldn’t actually have been a potter in the House of God, should there? Then Bands, or Binding was broken, signifying God’s breaking His bands with Israel while they were dispersed.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to David
11:1 Having spoken of judgment upon Tyre in chapter 9 along with judgment upon others Zechariah now turns to speak of judgment upon Lebanon.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
11:17 In speaking of the arms of the idol shepherds being ‘dried up’ Zechariah is alluding to 1 Kings 13:4 when a man who tried to oppose the prophet of God was punished.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
11:8 We have seen other links to the earlier prophet Hosea. Here we have another one. The shepherds which were to be ‘cut off in one month’ echoes Hos 5:7.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
This chapter is primarily talking about the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in the 6th. Century BC. Then, there can be a secondary prophetic application.
V.1 The temple is being referred to hear and not the country of Lebanon. Cedars from Lebanon were brought down to construct the temple (1Kin 5:10; 6:9). The destruction of the temple is figuratively portrayed by Ezekiel (Eze 17:3).
V.17 This is an end time prophecy concerning the false prophet who opposes the Truth. He and his apostate system of worship will be destroyed by the Lord Jesus when He returns (2Thess 2:3,4; Rev 16:13;19:20; 20:10).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
11:6 The way in which every man’s hand will be against his neighbour is a way in which God brings deliverance to Israel. Their enemies flight against themselves whilst Israel, in faithfulness, watch on.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
TRUST THE SHEPHERD
In his book, Caution, God At Work, Tim Galbraith picks up the parable of God's leading us through life like a shepherd leads his sheep. The shepherd does his best for the flock as he leads them to the best pastures and clear waters. But sometimes the shepherd might by-pass a seemingly good looking pasture or a tranquil pond because the grass is poison or the waster is stagnant. We, as sheep, don't necessarily recognize the poisonous grass or water that will make us sick, and so sometimes we question the shepherd's love, care, or motives. But as God's sheep, we need to trust him and realize that although we can't always see the reasons he leads us in certain ways or closes certain doors to us, he is doing it for our best.
Zechariah was told to shepherd or pasture God's flock. In the first month he got rid of three shepherds. (Zech 11:8) But even though he led his flock as God would have led them, with love, care and kindness, and the needs of the flock in his heart, he ended up saying, "The flock detested me." (v.8)
God is still our shepherd. He leads us. We need to ask ourselves if we will accept God's leadership or if we will question and doubt and despise the way he leads us because it is not the way we think we want to go. When the flock detested Zechariah, he left them to their own devices to destroy themselves. Let's not detest God's leadership of us or he may do the same.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Robert
11:6 Israel have been back in the land for a very short time. However God is going to punish ‘the inhabitants of the land’ which indicates that the return from Babylon did not bring with it Godliness, nor were Israel a good example to the inhabitants surrounding them. Therefore judgment was to come.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
11:16 This promise of an avaricious shepherd who cares for himself and not the flock contrasts starkly with the wonderful promise of the earlier prophet who spoke to these same people when they were in captivity – Eze 34:11-17
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
“Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me.”
The Hebrew translation has the definitive, “the three shepherds.” The incident of the three shepherds forms part of the prophetic Scripture referring to the closing days of Israel’s history. As shepherds they would be over the people of Israel. Brother John Carter in his book, Prophets After the Exile, identifies the three shepherds as the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees.
However, most of the Scribes were of the Pharisees, so it may be that the three shepherds were of the three orders of magistrates, that being the Roman king, or Caesar, Hebrew prophets, and priests. They did not perform the duties of their office; the civil magistrate did not govern according to God's laws, the prophets did not teach sound doctrine; and the priests did not do their service aright, nor teach the people in leading them to their Messiah, their true Shepherd, King, Prophet and Priest, as they should have done. Matt 23:1-36 describes Christ’s loathing of them, and the abhorring of these three powers towards him united them to crucify, or cut off the Messiah (Mark 3:6; see also Acts 5:17, the Sadducees' attitude), causing vengeance to come upon them to the entire cutting off of all leadership and the nation in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Valerie
11:16 The unfaithful shepherd should have reminded the people of the warning that Ezekiel had given – Eze 34:2-4
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
One thing that seems fairly clear about this hard-to-understand prophecy is that a time frame for its fulfillment almost has to be the first century and Jesus' sacrifice (see vv. 12,13). So if that's the case, here are several questions -
1. Who are the 3 shepherds whom God says He'll remove in one month - v. 8?
2. What is the meaning of the 2 staffs called Favor and Union (vv. 7,10,14)?
3. Who is the uncaring shepherd that God was to raise up (vv. 15,16)?
1. A consistent theme running throughout this chapter is the Shepherd(s) - where God is the overall Shepherd who has appointed one like Him to be the Good Shepherd of the flock - Jesus. One of his responsibilities was - vv. 4,5 - to pasture the flock marked for slaughter, those who were buying the sheep and making exorbitant money off the deal and killing them. This seems to fit very well with the two occasions when Jesus cleansed the Temple of the greedy Jews at both the beginning and end of his ministry. So, to get around to an answer for question 1, how about the scribes and chief priests, Pharisees, and Sadducees - the self-appointed leaders of the nation who were only leading them down the road to destruction? And the one month in which the land would be rid of them would be the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple and their being carried away into captivity due to their sins.
2. The two staffs called Favor and Union make me think of Ezekiel's prophecy in Eze 37:15-19 where Ezekiel is told to take a stick and write on it "Belonging to Judah" and to find another and write on it "Ephraim's stick" (i.e. Israel) and join them together into one stick. But, of course, that was a prophecy that has not yet found its fulfillment but will when the "saved" portion of Israel will encompass Jews from all around the world who are repentant and blessed by God and Jesus in the Kingdom age. Here Zechariah is seeing a breaking up of any union that may have been there in the first century due to their ongoing sins as seen first and foremost in their rejection of Jesus and their subsequent crucifying of him (vv. 12,13 fit in with this). Along with this was God's breaking of His covenant to give them the land and bless them in it. So the best and greatest fulfillment of the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning an eternal inheritance of the land would have to be put off into the distant future.
3. The uncaring shepherd whom God appoints over the land who will not care for the poor and needy would likely correspond to the Roman rulership that they would be under then leading up to the catastrophic events of A.D. 70.
Wes Booker [South Austin Texas USA] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Wes
11:8-9 Because of the Godless behaviour of all the teachers they will be removed and those who are not taught will perish. It is as if God has given all of them up to destruction. Rather like the way that the Psalmist speaks – Psa 81:12
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
11:14 The breaking of the brotherhood between Israel and Judah might seem a strange thing to predict. Israel had gone into captivity with the Assyrians and never returned as a nation to the land of Israel. Judah, who had been taken captive by the Chaldeans, were now back in the land. But Israel and Judah were not united in the land.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
11:7-10 Zechariah had been given visions that he had to identify the significance of in the first six chapters. Now he is instructed to act out a “parable” for the people to work out.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
11:5 Those who claim to be “rich” have actually achieved their wealth by oppression. However they see their wealth as being from God! How easy it is for us to justify our actions because we think that we are being blessed by God. The things we achieve are no guarantee that God is blessing us. Nor does it follow that one who is suffering is being punished by God. We need to assess whether we are following His commandments or not. Whether we are happy with our situation or no is no indication of faithfulness to God. Faithfulness to God can only be measured in terms of adherence to His word.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
11:6 The way that Zechariah speaks of delivering men into the hands of their neighbour is found also in the contemporary prophet Hag 2:22
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
11:6 The way in which God said He would “no more pity” echoes the words of Hos 1:6 when God, speaking to Israel, was speaking of their imminent captivity by Assyria.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
11:6 In an earlier post I highlighted links with the prophecy of Hosea. Here is another one. “I am rich” draws on Hos 12:8
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
11:16-17 against the background of the wonderful promises made by the prophet of peace in Jerusalem what Zechariah says here must have been devastating. Whilst echoing the words of the slightly earlier prophet Ezekiel it looks forward to the time of Jesus when the Jewish leaders of his day were self-seeking rather than seeking God. It was into that environment that Jesus came.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
11:9 God had brought the nation back to the land as he had promised. They had been taken in to captivity because of disobedience. And now, back in the land, they are not much better. The lessons had not been learned. So God is not going to feed them. They probably thought that they were capable of feeding themselves! But it seems that they had degenerated to such a position that they were totally unteachable.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
11:2 speaking metaphorically of the surrounding nations the prophet is inspired to speak of them as different trees.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
11:5 Some equate wealth and riches as favour with God. Human kind tends to focus on material wealth and tends to honour those who have possessions above the who are less well off, or even in poverty.
God is not like that – Rom 2:11 so should not harbor that way of thinking – James 2:1
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
11:15-17 The words of the prophet here must have been very puzzling to the exiles who had returned to Jerusalem. However they would become horribly true at the time of Jesus when the religious leaders – the shepherds – fed themselves rather than the people
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
13:9 - Oh that we might be listed amongst those who had an ear. This talks of childlike faith and an open-minded thirst for the things of God, always desiring to hear more and to understand more and to love more and to pray more, that we might by God's grace be with Him for evermore.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
12:3 The use of 'dragon' catches the way that the Old Testament speaks of nations as dragons. Babylon Jeremiah 51:34 and Egypt Ezekiel 29:3 are both styled as dragons. This dragon catches the evil of mankind in its opposition to God. Indeed by calling the dragon 'the old serpent Revelation 12:7 we are taken back to the garden of Eden and the original lie which opposed God.
So even if we cannot actually identify the dragon of this chapter we know the sort of things it does and so can avoid association with it.
13:1-2 This terrible beast which John saw is a composite of the beasts which Daniel saw Daniel 7:3-8. We know from Daniel that those beasts represent the four kingdoms of Daniel 2.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
child ... as it was born
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Exo 1:22 | |
brought forth a man child
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Isa 66:7 | |
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron
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Psa 2:7 |
Here we have an interesting linking of three Old Testament passages. Exodus 1 is the birth of Moses. Isaiah 66 Jesus and Psalm 2 the work of Jesus in the kingdom.
as many as would not worship the image ... should be
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Following our comment in June we notice this link with the image which Nebuchadnezzar had set up. Whilst Daniel worshipped God the advisers sought to cause him to fall by seeking to cause him to compromise his worship of his God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
serpent ... which deceiveth
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The quotation from Genesis 3 shows, that despite all the pomp and power of the nations they are in reality just the seed of the serpent and so will be destroyed by Christ at his return.
make an image
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So we are back with the image which Nebuchadnezzar set up. A pattern of the kingdom of men.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
12:11 In saying that some "loved not their lives unto death" Jesus quotes his own words (Luke 14:26) as an encouragement to those who had to live through the period this chapter speaks of.
13 The repeated quotations from Daniel 7 shown above highlight that Revelation is concerned with a power which bore the characteristics of those nations spoken of in Daniel. Revelation 13 speaks of a composite of the nations alluded to in Daniel 7.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
13:18 Wisdom is found in properly identifying the "beast", and maintaining a strict separateness from it. It is significant that this phrase is repeated in Rev 17:9 where it is more clearly identified.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
A quick overview of these two chapters shows that they deal with the rise of the apostate church that would oppose the Truth and its believers.
The apostate church was able to operate with the blessing of the Emperor Constantine who embraced Christianity for his own political ends. Thus, Imperial Rome became the state sponsor of the so-called Christian church.
Constantine endorsed the Council of Nicaea's declaration of the doctrine of the Trinity (325 AD), and commanded that it must be believed by all Christians. Those who did not were deemed heretics and subject to abuse. This abuse continued for many centuries resulting in horrible conditions and death for true believers.
The Lord Jesus will finally destroy this false system of worship when He returns.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
12:6 The woman flees into the wilderness pursued by the red dragon. A woman is seen coming out of the wilderness riding a scarlet coloured beast – Rev 17:3. What is the relationship between these two women?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
12:6 The place prepared of God was found "in the wilderness", which suggests an area remote from the normal abiding place of man. This has been the case in the past, by going into a remote area, one for the most part has been able to become except from persecution.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to John
13:17 We should not confine our thinking to commercial trading when we read of buying and selling. Prov 23:23 speaks of the ‘truth’ in terms of buying and selling. Isa 55:1 speaks of buying ‘without price’ clearly speaking of the message of salvation. Here in Revelation we see a situation where the promulgation of the gospel is controlled by men – as the Roman Catholic Church has, in the past, told its adherents that they should not read the Bible.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
12:13 The true followers of Christ were opposed and persecuted by the remnants of paganism where it remained in power.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to John
13:7 In making war and overcoming the saints the language of Dan 7:21is echoed. The context in Daniel is that at this time the ‘Ancient of days’ will stand to deliver the saints.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
12:10 The deliverance from the powers of the previous verse bringing salvation is based upon the destruction of the power of sin through the works of the seed of the woman as outlined in Genesis 3.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
The Devil And Satan - part 3 of 3 [lesson 12 of 20 from "Outline of Basic Bible Teachings" by Wes Booker (for part 1 see July 3, Matthew 3 - or for part 2 see July 15, Matthew 16)]
IV. Wrested passages used to try and prove that the devil, Satan = supernatural fallen angel:
A. Rev 12:7-9
1. Compare 1:1 - things SHORTLY to come to pass 2. Why is the disclosure of the devil's true identity reserved for the last book of the Bible? And why is it used in such a symbolic setting (verses 1-6)? 3. Verse 9 says serpent, devil, Satan = great red dragon, having seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns on his head. This sounds figurative, not literal. 4. In the Lord's prayer, it says "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." If God's will is always done in heaven, then how could there be an actual rebellion of angels, and some cast out? Heavens here are symbolic - Isa 1:2,10;Deut 31:30;32:1 5. When this happens (verses 7-9), then verse 10 says that it brings about the kingdom of God and power of His Christ. How does this fit something that supposedly happened before creation?
B. Isaiah 14
1. A proverb of the king of Babylon (verse 14) i.e. Assyria-Babylon (verse 25) 2. Verse 13 - he wanted to ascend into heaven, to exalt his throne above the stars - the fallen angel was supposedly already in heaven 3. Verse 13 - "I will sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the North". The king of Babylon-Assyria wanted to take Jerusalem - Psa 48:2; Isaiah 36 & 37 may be historical fulfilment - see especially Isa 37:37-38. 4. Verse 16 "Is this the MAN...?"
1. Jesus saw it. How could it then refer to something before creation? 2. The passage does not say that Satan fell from heaven. It says that his fall was swift as lightening falling from heaven. It refers to demons being in subjection to the seventy disciples (see verses 17,19).
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Charles
While some of Revelation is quite clear, I'm not fully confident in any of the various interpretations. When Christ returns the faithful will fully understand (1Cor 13:12).
Rev 12:1 - Heaven refers to political heavens. A woman clothed with the sun, etc. is not literal. We have a similar description in Genesis (Gen 37:9-11) and it is suggested the sun is Jacob, the moon Leah, the stars leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel so the woman would be the ideal Israel at this stage. The woman finds her true beginning with Eve and the serpent (i.e. sin) is standing before her ready to devour her seed upon birth (Gen 3:15-16;Isa 7:14;Matt 1:21-23).
Rev 12:2 - Israel suffered waiting for the redeemer to be delivered (Rom 8:22).
Rev 12:3 - We have a red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev 12:9-10) and similar beasts (Rev 13:1;Rev 17:3). The red dragon is the accuser of the brethren, is universally hostile to God's people (esp. the son of this woman) and gives power to the beast (Rev 13:2) which would be human institutions opposed to that which is good (Eph 6:12).
Rev 12:4 - The stars cast down to heaven have an echo in Daniel (Dan 8:3,9,10) which suggests persecutions of the people of God would be from roots following Alexander the Great's empire. The dragon is the sum of human sinfulness and operates through human powers (i.e. the beast).
Rev 12:5 - The child is elevated to the highest position he could attain. Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron (Psa 2:6-12;110:1-2;Isa 11:1,4;Gen 49:10;Num 24:17,19;Psa 45:6-7;Matt 2:1-2;Heb 1:8;Rev 2:27-28;Rev 22:16;Rev 19:15-16).
Rev 12:6 - At various times the woman is in the wilderness. Herod attempted to kill the young child (Jer 31:15;Matt 2:13-19). 1260 days may refer to Christ's ministry along with John the Baptist's literal and spiritual wilderness preparation with Israel (Isa 40:3;Matt 3:1-3). The woman has a coming apostasy (Rev 12:14).
Rev 12:7-9 - This is language used of the proud king of Babylon's fall (Isa 14:12) and demonstrates how Christ's crucifixion brought the power of sin to an end. Christ healed fleshly infirmities, and through his crucifixion and resurrection defeated sin, personified by the devil, so believers might have hope (Luke 10:17-18;John 12:31-33;Gen 3:15;Heb 2:14,17;Heb 4:15;1John 3:8).
Rev 12:10-12 - Despite Christ's victory over sin, which gives believers hope of eternal life, sin is still a force to be reckoned with (Rom 8:1,33-39).
Rev 12:13 - Ideal Israel had given birth to Christ and true Christianity but there would be major challenges that lie ahead.
Rev 12:14 - The woman would become apostate (Zech 5:7-11). Shinar is short for Babylon (Gen 11:2;Isa 11:11;Dan 1:2).
Rev 12:17 - The dragon (sin and the sinful institutions controlled by the dragon) goes after those who who obey God's commandments and hold on to the testimony of Jesus Christ. The dragon (personification of sin) of chapters 12 through 20 is the same.
The above sketch was mostly gleaned from Apocalypse For Everyman by A.D. Norris, pps 206-225.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Charles
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
DECEPTION
To be taken at gunpoint and challenged for our faith is possibly easier to stand against than a subtle deception that convinces us to abandon God by its persistence and logical arguments. But while the prophecies in Revelation certainly foretell blatant persecution, it also talks about deceit.
One particular instance of deceit draws our attention to the beast of the earth. "Because of all the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth." (Rev 13:14) Whether or not we believe we live in this period of time, deception is something we all need to be on our guard against.
Deception happens quietly and often without us noticing. Usually on the surface it appears there is nothing wrong with it and so we get sucked in unaware until it is too late. When we go fishing we disguise our hook with bait in order to deceive the fish into a false sense of security as it bites the hook. It is no different for those who are out to deceive us out of our faith today.
So in order not to be deceived we need to become completely familiar with what is true and right so that we can see any deception long before we are deceived by it. Deception could cost our lives. Let us be prepared to face it.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Robert
13:8 We may have difficulty identifying who is being spoken of and despair that we cannot fathom out the details of the book of Revelation. However, I suggest, all of us can easily see that there is a call to separation here. We need to ensure that we are written in the lamb’s book of life. We will then not be shaken by any worldly organization which seeks our allegiance.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth and pained to be delivered.”
The astronomical scene described here by the apostle John, and borne out by astronomical records, reveals to its minutest detail that this event occurred in the evening of September 11th 3 B.C. Professor Ernest Martin, in his book The Birth of Christ Recalculated, reveals: “… another striking factor regarding this day in question – September 11th, 3 B.C. was a New Moon Day – Tishri One – The Jewish New Year (Rosh Ha-shanah) – The Day of Trumpets (Lev 23:23-25)!” The “woman” (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs.” The head of Virgo was situated in the last 10 degrees of Leo, the Lion (of Judah) a title ascribed to Messiah (Rev 5:5), and ends with him being crowned as King (Rev 17:14). Thus, the story of Messiah, our head (1Cor 11:3), as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin (Matt 1:23; Luke 1:27), and conclude with him being crowned King in the last degrees of Leo the Lion “with its chief star being Regulus – the king-star.” You may read more on this at: http://www.versebyverse.org/ Click on "doctrine" and scroll down to "Information on the" and click on "Birth of Christ." Now go down to section VIII, "The Birth of Christ and the Day of Trumpets" (not a Christadelphian site). Incidentally, Brother John Thomas calculated the year of Messiah's birth to be in 3 B.C. - years before Professor Martin!
We read in 1Cor 15:52: “…at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised…” “The last trump” was when the dead were remembered in the hopes of a future resurrection – the final Feast of Ingathering. John, through astronomical signs, reveals the birth, or the First Advent of Messiah, as being on the Feast of Trumpets, and Paul reveals the time of his return, the Second Advent, will also be on the Feast of Trumpets!
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Valerie
The beasts of Rev 13 represent the same four beasts of Dan 7, which morphed with time, so they didn’t look the same, yet are one. During the apostle John’s time it was the IRON beast of Rome. The following was itemized from Brother Michael Ashton’s Revelation STUDY GUIDE study CDs, and from LOGOS Eureka study notes.
DANIEL’S 4 GREAT BEASTS (Dan 7)
1: Lion with eagle’s wings (Babylonian rule)
2: Bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs in his mouth between his teeth (Medo-Persian rule)
3: Leopard with four wings and four heads (Grecian Leopard rule)
4: Dreadful and terrible, indescribable, had iron teeth and ten horns – its territory being the Pagan Roman body politic (Roman beast)
BEAST OF REVELATION (Rev 13)
1: Has seven heads and ten horns (Daniel's 4th beast, Roman Papal System)
2: Body of a leopard (represents the Kingdom of Men)
3: Feet of a bear (represents the Kingdom of Men)
4: Mouth of a lion (represents the Kingdom of Men) - the Kingdom of Men (see Dan 2) revived Roman Catholicism and gave back the power they once lost (deadly wound was healed).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Valerie
12:6 The fleeing into the wilderness where there is a prepared place echoes the deliverance of Israel from Egypt into the wilderness. See Exo 16:32 which talks of God caring for Israel andExo 23:20 where Israel were told that an angel would go before them.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
12:13 The dragon power that had been vanquished now pursues the woman. Rather like the Jewish leaders who could not prevail against Jesus – despite the fact that they had crucified him he rose from the dead – they pursue Jesus’ followers as is recorded in detail in the Acts of the Apostles.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
12:11 In the book of Daniel we meet individuals who loved not their lives unto death – Dan 3:16-18. Thus we see the sort of attitude that those whoa re faithful to God should have about their obedience to God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
13:18 The “wisdom” spoken of is not the wisdom of the things of this world. Rather it is the wisdom of God which comes from a reading and understanding His revealed will in the Bible.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
12:9 Whoever is being spoken of here the key point is that it “deceiveth”. It is not as if a lie was told and then the matter is over. This power continues to seek to undermine the faith of the believers.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
Rev 12:1 The women clothed with the sun, represents what?
We read in the Book of Revelation of two women who symbolise different groups of people. A bride, clean and white, the faithful followers of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 19:7-8) and Jezebel who teaches and seduces God’s servants is a symbol for corrupted forms of Christianity (Rev 2:20).
The women clothed with the sun had the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head (Rev.12:1) represents a system of false teaching, a corruption of truth. In the days of King Manasseh (2Kin 21:1-3) we find these same symbols associated with false religion. Manasseh’s system of false worship led the nation of Israel to sin against the true God of heaven (Jer 8:1-3). Israel engage in false worship associated with the sun, moon and the host (stars) of heaven.
Peter Moore [Erith, UK] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
12:17 Here we see a principle which was seen with Jesus and his disciples. Jesus had been persecuted during his life but when he had been raised form the dead he could not be persecuted so the Jewish authorities persecuted his disciples instead.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
12:6 The idea of being fed through God’s provision is seen in the way in which God took care of Elijah during a drought – 1Kin 17:4,9. We can take comfort that God does take care of His children even when, humanly speaking, all hope is lost.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
“THE anti-catholic community was to be sustained ‘out of the sight of the Serpent-government,’ in the wings of the Great Roman Eagle, for 1260 years, from the epoch of its legal condemnation as heretical, its exclusion from high places, and its banishment from the sunshine of imperial favour, A.D. 312-315.
The individuals who composed the party of the woman were not all saints. Her seed was composed of remnants, not, as in the Common Version, of a remnant.
A remnant of her seed, and the common people of the Eagle’s wings, ‘the earth,’ coalesced. They became political allies against the party in power; and were upon emergency prepared to withstand their oppressors by force of arms. These were the vanguard of the other remnant of her seed, whose principle is passive endurance of injury ‘unto death’; and trusting for vindication to Him who saith, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ These were the saints sealed in their foreheads as the especial servants of the living God.
In Apoc. xi, 1-3, ‘the remnants of her seed’ are specified by the names of ‘the Holy City’ and ‘the Two Witnesses.’ The former consists of those ‘who keep the commandments of the Deity, and hold the testimony of the anointed Jesus: the later, the Politico-Religious Democracy essentially and constitutionally hostile to the ‘Mother of Harlots’ and her Harlot Daughters, in all the countries where they are ‘by law established.’”
Dr. John Thomas, Eureka, Vol. 3, pp. 109-112
Cf. Rev 11:1-3
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
THE CATHOLIC “JEZEBEL”
“THOUGH ‘the Lamb’s Woman’ refused to be allied to the Roman State, and retired into the wilderness, the State-Church Woman, Jezebel, was not so scrupulous. As ‘the church by law established’ she retained her place in the heaven; and became ‘the Great Harlot’ of the world. Little notice is taken of her apocalyptically until she is exhibited in ch. 17:1, in all the enormity of her profligate career. In this scene, she appears in the wilderness, into which the Anti-Church Woman fled. She is seen ‘drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus’; and sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. She represents a ‘great city’ or polity, ‘reigning over the kings of the earth”. Her name in the beginning was Jezebel; but in the crisis of her fate it is also “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots, and Abominations of the earth.” She reigns until the Ancient of Days is revealed, who casts her into a bed, and them who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, and kills her children with death—ch. 2:22. This is the end of Jezebel in the day of Jezreel—Hos 1:11.
A different destiny, however, is apocalyptically indicated for the woman espoused as a chaste virgin to Christ. She entered the imperial presence, but soon found that it was impossible to enjoy imperial favour and protection, and maintain her honour and allegiance to her Divine Husband in purity and truth. She therefore fled from the sunshine of royalty, and left behind her the Jezebel of her communion, to whom the blandishments of courts were altogether congenial.”
Brother John Thomas, Eureka III
Many themes in the Bible weave themselves throughout the tapestry of Scripture and because all the information about a given subject is not found in one chapter of the Bible, it is easy to miss great principles of truth hidden away in the pages of Holy Writ.
The apostle John speaks of both a woman and a city, its counterpart being the bride of Christ and a city, the New Jerusalem. Rev 17 speaks of the judgment upon the Jezebel harlot (cf. Rev 2:20-23) and Rev 18 speaks of her close associations with the world’s businesses in all its aspects, socially, culturally, economically, politically, making her religious profession one of outward show and pomposity in her royal robes, a murderer in league with world leaders, an apostate body with the political powers of the world and their economic wealth. Blind and unaware to her impending doom (Rev 19), she continues to sit as a “queen,” as Jezebel was, but the woman will fall, the corrupt city will crumble suddenly, while the pure bride of Christ will rise and shine in a glorious city, the New Jerusalem (Rev 21).
For any one of us to believe that members of such a harlot system may be in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, as immortalized saints with Christ is nothing short of blasphemy! To be in league with such a harlot system, the complete embodiment of the Jezebel spirit, no matter how much they profess to love Jesus and God, which is another Jesus (2Cor 11:4), and so, another God, which is no God (John 14:6,7; 2John 1:9; cf. 1Cor 8:5,6; Deut 32:17), is defiling and no place will be found for such in the Kingdom of the Deity. The Word is very clear on this (Rev 2:22,23).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
THE SEVENTH SEAL – THE WOMAN’S SON, CONSTANTINE
“THE historical testimony of Gibbon concerning Constantine is demonstrative of the true character of the Woman’s Son. ‘The first of the Christian emperors,’ says he [Gibbon], ‘was unworthy of that name till the day of his death.’
In the days of the apostles they only were Christians who believed ‘the gospel of the kingdom,’ and were immersed; but Constantine was ignorant of it, and therefore could not believe it, and was not immersed until three days before his death, A.D. 337.
Constantine assumed the character of a bishop, presided at ecclesiastical councils, gave judgment against Christians reputed ‘heretical’ by his party, enjoined the solemn observance of the first day of the week, which he called the day of the sun, DIE SOLIS, after his once favourite god, and in the same year, A.D. 321, directed the regular consultation of AURUSPICES.
He prayed with the faithful, disputed with the bishops, preached on the most sublime and intricate subjects of theology, celebrated with ‘sacred rites’ the vigil of Easter, and publicly declared himself, not only a partaker, but, in some measure, a priest and *hierophant of the Christian mysteries.
What shall we say of such a church, and of such a religion, whose professors could permit, and even applaud, such flagrant violation of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ? The only conclusion attainable is that such a community is the CHURCH OF ANTICHRIST, and her imperial protector and chief, the MAN OF SIN.”
Brother John Thomas, Eureka, Vol III
(Emphasis added)
*A hierophant (Ancient Greek: á¼±εροφάντης) is a person who brings religious congregants into the presence of that which is deemed holy. The word comes from ancient Greece, where it was constructed from the combination of ta hiera, "the holy", and phainein, "to show". In Attica it was the title of the chief priest at the Eleusinian Mysteries. A hierophant is an interpreter of sacred mysteries and arcane principles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophant/
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
CONSTANTINE AND THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH
“CONSTANTINE, at the time of the famous Edict of Milan, A.D. 313, did not know to which sect of ‘the whole body of Christians’ he belonged. It was not long, however, before the worst of the sects was able to establish its ascendancy over the untutored mind of this ambitious and fortunate soldier. This was the sect which styles itself, and taught him to so style it, THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH.
This church became the special object of his care and favourable legislation; and he was taught by its bishops to believe that its members were his only real and trustworthy adherents. Impressed with this conviction he established it by law; and set it up in the heaven as the “Woman invested with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and upon her head a wreath of twelve stars.” And there she has remained.
When Constantine came to recognize the Catholic sect as his Mother Church, what became of the rest of the Anti-pagan Body—of the Novatians, Donatists, and others? They were subjected to a persecuting and repressant influence—were banished from the high places of Church and State, and made to seek refuge in the wild and uncivilized places of society.
The anti-catholic sect that took the lead in opposition at this crisis was that of the Donatists. Doubtless among these were to be found the first of ‘the remnants of the woman’s seed, who keep the commandments of the Deity, and hold the testimony of the anointed Jesus” (v. 17). The name of this remnant, if it had any other than Donatist, has not come down to us.”
Brother John Thomas, Eureka, Vol. III
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
THE SEVENTH SEAL - CONSTANTINE, THE TYPICAL MICHAEL
“HE was not personally the Michael, or first of the chief princes spoken of in Dan 10:13, nor the Michael termed in Dan 12:1, ‘the great Prince who standeth for the children of Daniel’s people,’ but for the time being he filled the office that will hereafter be more potently and gloriously illustrated by the Great Prince from heaven, who will bind the dragon and shut him in the abyss for a thousand years—Rev 20:2,3.
The militant mission of Constantine and the Great Prince, Jesus Christ, are similar, but not identical. The power of the Deity was with Constantine, as it was with Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, and the first Napoleon; while Christ is the great power of the Deity corporealized.
Constantine was to rule all the nations of the Roman habitable with an iron scepter from the time he attained supreme power till he died, which was about fourteen years. Christ and his brethren are to rule all the nations of the globe with an iron scepter for a thousand years—Rev 19:15; Rev 2:26,27. Constantine stood up with the Catholics, and for them and Christians, against the Pagan Dragon. Christ Jesus will stand up for the saints, and with them against the Catholic Dragon and Beasts whom he will bind and destroy. Thus the word parallelizes the greater and the less in their military antagonism, to the power hostile to the Divine Name. It may, therefore, be fairly admitted that in his military career against the Dragon, Constantine was a typical Michael.”
Brother John Thomas, Eureka, Vol. III
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
12:2 the woman with child in pain and crying out is rather like what we read in Isa 26:17 which is speaking of Israel’s deliver being provided in a time of conflict and uncertainty.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
13:3 In being shown a head that had a deadly wound that was healed we are being shown a power that looked as if it had lost its power but then was revived.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
12:9 We see that the creatures spoken of is given a number of different descriptions “”old serpent” “the Devil” “satan”. We should try and identify what, in the Old Testament, forms the basis for each of the descriptions given.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
“And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark… that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”
Biblically speaking, beasts represent ecclesiastical and earthly world powers (cf. Dan 7; Rev 13). For example: Rome’s emblem is an eagle, as is America’s; Russia’s is the bear; China’s is the dragon, while the U.K. is the lion. The sea, the ecclesiastical power, has united with the earth, or political powers to bring about a One World Government. This was in the making for a very long time, and though they even openly publicized their plans for years, it was executed in full swing in March 2020.
We now find ourselves in a culture that parallels the time of Daniel and the first century ecclesia. While presently we are inhibited to worship God and mention the name of Jesus, it is only a question of time before it will be mandated that our form of worship be abolished altogether to make way for a new form of worship (cf. Matt 16:18)!
Project Megiddo, a report released by the FBI on October 20, 1999, “named followers of white supremacy, Christian identity… apocalyptic cults as potential terrorists who might become violent in reaction to the new millennium… The extreme terrorist fringes of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all present in the United States…” en.wikipedia.org/
A ten-story tall statue, called, “The Giant,” has been erected, which can move, talk, and shape-shift into the form of any person. https://himitsustudy.com/ Nebuchadnezzar’s image comes to mind, so, is this to prep our minds as to what is still to come (cf. Dan 3:4-7)? In Ecc 1:9 we read: “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” Robert Roberts writes in Thirteen Lectures on the Apocalypse, p. 67, “If we contrast the world of that age with the world of this, we see what has been done.”
Are we slowly being conditioned by the use of mandated masks for accepting the mark of the beast? Masks have become a prerequisite without which we cannot enter most stores to buy or sell. In principle, it would appear that we are being transitioned to accept the mark of the beast. Just what this will be in our day, only time will tell. I would like to emphasize that the mask is not the mark, but it may well set the stage for accepting it, in my opinion.
History parallels the predicament in our current culture. While dealing with different “actors” on different life stages, with different events at different times, the end result will not change. This is evidenced by the Trumpets and Vials of Revelation wherein each successive parallel event of the “earth” and “sea” finally culminates to the glorious return of our Saviour. We live in a completely different society today, a contentious season on a scale scarcely ever imagined or dreamed of. The only thing that really differs is how individuals react to them. No vaccine, no medication will bring us back to life as we knew it prior to 2020.
The prophet Daniel shows us a lot about how to react and live victorious lives in a troubled political landscape. The beast of the sea coalesced with the beast of the earth to bring about a global upheaval such as never was. What we are presently experiencing no where near reflects what is still to come and we are being gradually conditioned to accept. As I see it, it is like the metaphor of the boiling frog and the inability to react to significant changes when introduced gradually to it! We must, therefore, stay watchful!
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Valerie
12:15-16 Whilst we might wonder at, in history, John is seeing in this vision there is a powerful lesson for us if we reflect on what was happening.
He woman, who clearly pleased God, was being pursued by her (and God’s enemy), So when it looked as if all was lost God intervened to save her.
This reflects exactly our situation. We could not save ourselves so God provided His son as our saviour.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”
In Revelation, we are given numbers that are meant to be figurative. For example: “24 elders,” “144,000,” and so it is with the number of a man, “666.” No clear identification was ever possible linking 666 with any one particular and specific individual, as it pertains to Revelation, despite our several attempts to do so with many of the past historical figures whose names totaled 666.
The word man in Greek is Anthropos, # <444>, a human being: -certain, man.” According to Strong’s Concordance, one would interpret it to mean a specific person, but without the definite article “the,” it does not point to a specific individual, but rather to the beast system, the number of humanity led by several heads. This would be consistent with Rev 13:1 with the beast system emerging from fallen humanity (cf. Rev 17:15-18).
We read in Rev 21:17, “measure of a man,” (# <444>), which is literally translated from the Greek as, “human measurement,” giving us the general idea of mankind’s general measuring system, rather than that of an individual person’s.
This verse is one of the most debated, as Christianity attempts to find out who the latter-day antichrist is and look for his appearing. However, it was meant to exhort the saints to discern the beast as a general system of government that is anti-Christ existing under several leaderships, and for the saints to remain faithful. https://www.bridgeinternational.org/apostasy-the-abrahamic-family-house-in-abu-dhabi-the-nohadide-law-and-the-global-reset/
It is really interesting to note this same apostle wrote in John 6:66 (666) of those who went back and no longer followed Christ. “From that time many of his disciples went back, and went no more with him.” Having no desire for his teaching, or “hard sayings” of the Word, they took the easy way and followed fallen humanity’s path that represents unregenerated humanity, separated from God and Christ.
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Valerie
12:2-4 Whilst we might struggle to identify the “woman” and the “dragon” the principle is clear.
We might describe it as the flesh warring against the spirit. It is easy, whoever is being spoken of, for us to decide who we would rather give our allegiance to.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
13:4-5 We see the spirit of the world’s thinking here. All worship the one speaking blasphemy. All we need to do is recognize such characteristics in elements of our society and avoid them,
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter