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v.10,11 - Is there no end to this man's patience through his faith? How many of us, when cursed in this way by an angry man from the opposition bringing railing and false accusations against us, would deal with it in this manner? There has to be a lesson here. 1Pet.2:20.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.5 - This event provided Jesus with much comfort in the Garden of Gethsemane. The table of verbal links between this time in David's life and Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane show us that we should see links.
A table Of Echoes Of The Uprising Of Absalom
David fleeing from Absalom | Jesus going to Gethsemane |
David flees Jerusalem from Absalom | Jesus leaves Jerusalem |
2 Samuel 15:23 David crosses Kedron | John 18:1 Jesus crosses Cedron |
2 Samuel 15:15 thy servants are ready … | Luke 22:49 they said.. shall we smite with the sword? |
2 Samuel 16:6 Shimei casts stones | Luke 22:41 stone’s cast |
Psalm 69:20 ‘heaviness’ | Matthew 26:37 Mark 14:33 ‘very heavy’ |
Psalm 69:20 ‘looked … for comforters … found none’ | Matthew 26:40 ‘could ye not watch …’ |
2 Samuel 15:26 David says ‘thy will be done’ | Matthew 26:42 Jesus prayed ‘thy will be done’ |
2 Samuel 15:31 David’s ‘familiar friend’ with Absalom | Matthew 26:47 Judas with those arresting Jesus |
2 Samuel 16:9 Abishai would kill Shimei | John 18:10 Peter cuts off Malchus’ ear |
Do we seek to identify with Biblical events and individuals when we are seeking to please the Father?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.5 - This Shimei was a significant man and features quite a bit in David's life after this point. Here are the other records about him - ch.19:16-18, 1Kings 2:8-9,36-46
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
16:6 The casting stones is picked up (Luke 22:41) When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane
16:9 Abishai's offer to remove Shimei's head is rather like the way that Peter swung out at Malchus - At least Abishai had the sense to ask first!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
Psa 7 was written as a consequence of Shimei's behaviour. So this Psalm gives us an insight into how David felt at this time.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
16:9 This is the second time that Abishai has sought to use the sword (1Sam 26:8) Clearly he did not understand what motivated David.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
V.16 What kind of man was Hushai? Was he what we would term a turn coat? It certainly appears that way, as we read this account. But, we must always remember that it was David who sent him to Absalom. 2Sam 15:32-37 He displayed true loyalty to David.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
Sometimes troubles do not come singly. Here was David escaping from Absalom, and in 2Sam 16:3 David heard that Saul's son Mephibosheth was also at Jerusalem hoping to have Israel return to him as king. Then Shimei cursed David. But David triumphed, because HE trusted in the Lord God.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to David
V.16 Hushai, the friend of David, would have continued with him into exile. But David had a better use for him to frustrate Ahithophel's advice in the household of Absalom (2Sam 15:32-37). What courage Hushai had to become Absalom's confidant in the house of the enemy. Such was the love and loyalty that Hushai had towards David.
Vs.21,22 The prophecy concerning the violation of David's concubines had come true (2Sam 12:11,12). Notice that the advice for this act came from Ahithophel. This must have been sweet revenge for David's adultery with his granddaughter Bathsheba.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
16:8 Shimei’s accusation that ‘the blood of the house of Saul’ was being required of David ignores the way that David spared the blood of Saul on at least two occasions – 1Sam 24:4-7, 26:5-12 So we might think that David would have been justified in having Shimei slain. However David would not take vengeance himself, leaving things in the hand of God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
I'm firmly convinced that every incident in the gospel records has its roots or counterpart, somewhere in the OT and that Jesus would have known his scripture so well, that he would know and use incidents from it.
One I read yesterday in the Testimony magazine was comparing Esau's reconciliation with Jacob to the lost son in Luke 15 parable. I guess because I don't have too high an opinion of Esau, I had never thought of that parallel but the language is clearly there to support it.
Jean Cheetham [Moorestown New Jersey (US)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Jean
16:11 David in speaking of Absalom’s wrong against David being greater than that of Shimei’s teaches us the importance of getting things into perspective.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
V.3 Was Ziba telling the truth, or was he an opportunist trying to gain the favour of David? Perhaps he had surmised that Absalom would fail in his attempted coup. And so, Ziba set about, craftily, to promote himself with David.
Ziba's bearing gifts to David was not done with the same motives as Abigail's action with regard to Nabal. Abigail was trying to appease David and avoid bloodshed. Her motives were noble (Prov 21:14).
Ziba, on the other hand, was buttering up (Br.) David to gain his favour for personal advancement. Ziba thought that his gifts would bring he and David closer together. Whether judgment was perverted in the process, or not, does not seem to be an issue (Prov 17:23; 18:16).
At this point, Ziba had been rewarded by David, but we shall see, later, that an amendment would be made.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
16:1-4 David was in dire straits and the gift that Ziba brought would be most welcome. However he was not to know that Ziba was maligning Mephibosheth. Mephibosheth speaks for himself later – 2Sam 19:24-30
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
V.5 Shimei was of the tribe of Benjamin, the same as Saul (v.11; 1Sam 9:1,2).
The town of Bahurim (means young men) was situated north of Jerusalem. In other scriptures, Bahurim is known by different names: Almon (means hidden) (Josh 21:18); Alemeth (means covering) (1Chron 6:60).
Vs.6-8 Shimei was not the only person who was angry at David for dispossessing Saul and his followers. But, none was as vocal and rude as Shimei, in expressing himself.
V.11 The sin might be forgiven, but the consequences of sin linger. Committing a sin is like driving a big nail into a post. Once the sin is forgiven, the nail is removed. But, there remains the hole in the post where the nail had been. Come the Day of Judgment, your personal post might be full of pock marks, but as long as no nails remain in your post, you’ll be o.k.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
16:15 The consequences of David violating Bathsheba now are coming home to roost – Her Grandfather, Ahithophel, is with Absalom.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
16:10 Here we see another example of the difficulty David had in running the kingdom. He had powerful men around him who were not spiritually minded.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
Those that be of heavy hearts
"Now the king and all the people who were with him became weary; so they refreshed themselves there." 2Sam 16:14
NKJV
The question raised by v14 is, what did the people refresh themselves with? And why were they so desperate that the Bible specifically mentions it? The answer is in v3, where Ziba provides wine for just such an event. David was obviously not expecting to be assaulted in this way by Shimei, yet Ziba somehow anticipated it. Had Ziba seen the uprising coming? What is certain is that he demonstrated his loyalty to David, because this provision of refreshment probably saved David's life. I think this is what we are meant to see when we read about this event, and this is why we are specifically told about it.
But why wine, and not water? Shimei's attack hurt them beyond what we can understand if we have never been kicked while we were down, and if we have never experienced true hatred. The wine, unlike water, dulled that emotional pain and helped them go on. As the proverb says: "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts" Prov 31:6.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Rob
2Sam 16:2,14 - believers through the ages go on a difficult exhausting wilderness journey, those who endure the wearying journey with the king (i.e. Christ) will be refreshed when they arrive at the destination of Zion.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Charles
16:16-19 Absalom had been so long away from Jerusalem that he clearly did not know the allegiance that Hushai had to David. Even though he had been in Jerusalem for at least two years by now – 2Sam 14:28 - he clearly had not kept David’ and Hushai’s company else he would not have made the presumption that he did!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
16:22 Absalom’s behaviour is a fulfilment of what Nathan said to David in 2Sam 12:11
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
16:22 What Absalom did was in direct violation of God’s teaching – Deut 22:30
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
16:23 Ahithophel’s counsel was based on an understanding of human nature. Clearly in that he counselled both David and then Absalom in his rebellion we can safely conclude that he was an ungodly man and as such not motivated by a love of the God of Israel.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
16:17-19 Hushai, David’s “friend” says he “served” David – a further indication that in this instance “friend” is a descriptive title.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
16:3 Whilst Ziba was charged with caring for Mephibosheth – 2Sam 9:9-11 - we see his true colours here
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
16:5 Shimei, doubtless, had held a grudge against David for many years. However now, when he thinks David is weak, he took the opportunity to curse David openly. One would hope that we never use another’s miss fortune as an opportunity to belittle them.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
16:20-21 Ahithophel’s counsel was, in effect, to tell Absalom to usurp David’s position as king.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
16:5 we have noted in a previous post that Shimei held a grudge. But if we think about the time since Saul died and David replaced him as king we realise it was 40 years. Doubtless we would never hold a grudge for so long? Or would we? Sometimes families do not speak with each other because of something that happened in the dim and distant past, the details of which are long forgotten.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
16:5 we have noted in a previous post that Shimei held a grudge. But if we think about the time since Saul died and David replaced him as king we realise it was 40 years. Doubtless we would never hold a grudge for so long? Or would we? Sometimes families do not speak with each other because of something that happened in the dim and distant past, the details of which are long forgotten.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
16:3-4 Given the attitude of some of the house of Saul towards David it is not surprising that David believed Ziba regarding Mephibosheth. However, whilst David’s conclusion seemed reasonable, it became evident - 2Sam 19:24-30 – that Ziba was lying. The bible principle of two witnesses and hearing both sides of a viewpoint are so true. We must be careful not to allow our heart to rule our head in matters of judgment.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
The parallel with David and Christ is amazing. The Lord Jesus must have had it in mind... After the Lord left the Temple (end of Mattew 23) he went up on Mt of Olives. His disciples with him admired the setting sun on the beautiful Jerusalem stone that the city and temple were built in. 40+ days later, the Lord ascended from the lower slopes of the Mt of Olives, Bethany (Luke 24:50,51). The Lord Jesus was the glory of God leaving the temple (Ezekiel 10:15-19) and then ascending from Olives (Ezek 11:22,23). The Lord, in glory, will return by the way of the East Gate. (Ezekiel 43:2-7)
Beulah Edwards [Christchurch West New Zealand] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Beulah
LEAVE HIM ALONE
It is hard to tolerate a person when they falsely accuse, curse or slander you - especially when they are intent on yelling and screaming and throwing stones.
As David fled from Absalom, Shimei came out and cursed him, throwing stones and dust at David. David's men wanted to cut off Shimei's head for his curses, but David would not let his men do Shimei any damage. He said, "Leave him alone and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. It may be that the LORD will look on all the wrong done to me, and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing today." (2Sam 16:11-12).
David knew a deeper principle, one that was summed up in a proverb that Solomon would write a few years later: "Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight." (Prov 26:2).
If Shimei's curses were from the LORD, then David figured he deserved them. If the curses were undeserved, then they would be baseless and would not come to rest, leaving God to repay David for the hardship he faced.
Let's develop the perspective of David and leave the sorting out of other people to God.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Robert
16:9 Some of us never learn not even from the good example of fellow believers around us. It was Abishai who had wanted to kill Saul on David’s behalf – 1 Samuel 26:8 - but was restrained by David. But he has not learnt what David’s principles were. Hopefully our association with Jesus has a greater impact on us that David’s did on Abishai!
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
16:7-8 We read - 2Sam 3:1 –that there was “long war” between the house of Saul and David. We now see evidence as to how long that “war” extended. We are now near to the end of David’s life and that “war” is still visible in the behaviour of Shimei.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
v. 3 - 'Magormissabib' means 'Fear on every side'. He was to be taken to Babylon and killed there. I often think it would be good to know the future of my life, and what God has planned for me, but this shows the folly of that thought. Instead we should dwell on passages like Rom 8:28, 35-39, Deut.8:2-3,16, Psa.46:1-2, Jer.24:5-7.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.3 - Magormissabib 04036 means 'terror on every side'. The changing of his name signified that judgements were to come from God. The judgements were not just because he had put Jeremiah in the stocks. However that behaviour signified how Israel actually felt about the Word of God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
v.9 - Here we have a clear picture of the urgency which the prophets felt as a result of the power of the spirit which forced them to speak the words of God. Consider, as well in this context, the fate of Balaam, who, Peter tells us, (2Pet.2:5) loved the wages of unrighteousness, but nevertheless was unable to speak to curse Israel even though the potential of half a kingdom could be his for doing it. Num.23,24.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
:7-18 Jeremiah on more than one occasion, was depressed because of the message that he had to give. Spare a thought for his loneliness and the way in which this man, the son of the high priest, was ostracised by society simply because he was doing God's work.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
:16 There are specific quotations from the narrative about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Cities … overthrew Genesis 19:25
Cry Genesis 18:21
Morning Genesis 19:27
Jeremiah must have been in a terribly depressed state to think thus of his origins.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
20:7-13 Jeremiah's meditation, cp. 2Sa 15 and Ps 3. cf. v14
Derek Palmer [Tenby (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Derek
20:3 Magormissabib, as we have seen before, means 'terror on every side' Jeremiah draws on this name again (Lam 2:22) after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
V.7 "stronger than I" Thou whose strength I could not resist hast laid this burden on me, and hast prevailed ( hast made me to prophesy, in spite of my reluctance) Jer 1:5-7 Yet I am treated with derision. Lam 3:14
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
BAD DAYS
Jeremiah was having a bad day. Having done what God told him to do and delivered God's message to the people, he had been beaten and put in stocks that day and overnight. To make it worse, he was mocked and insulted.
Our bad days don't often become as extreme as this particular bad day of Jeremiah's. In fact, for the most part our bad days are luxury compared to what Jeremiah went through. The point we need to notice is how Jeremiah reacted to this situation, and then we need to compare his reaction to the way we react when we have bad days.
Jeremiah began by turning to God in prayer. He was full of emotion and he poured it all out to God. He knew God was interested in the things that happened to him and so he let God know every detail of his predicament. In fact we learn more about what Jeremiah was going through from his prayer than we learn from the narration we read before the prayer.
So we should react in the same way during our bad days. Tell it to God. Tell him our feelings and emotions and what has been happening to us.
As Jeremiah prayed, he was strengthened and he began to sing and to praise the LORD.
Maybe our prayers will lift us up in the same way, so that our bad days will not end the way they began.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Robert
V.14-18 Perhaps this lament was uttered when Jeremiah was in the stocks, or at some other crucial time of testing. It shows the humanness of the prophet, and provides insight into the the depths of his anguish and suffering. Not unlike Job(Job 3:3-6)
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to John
V.9 Jeremiah was constantly mocked and now abused for telling God's truth. He saw the hopelessness of the message falling on deaf ears and became discouraged. But he could not give up. Let's hope that we develop the same burning of the Word inside us, that whatever trials we face we will not give up (Matt 10:22).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
What an interesting insight we have here of Jeremiah as a person. In Jer 20:7-9 he confesses that he was tired of speaking “violence and spoil”. He had, in fact, tried not to speak, but God’s word was like a burning fire shut up in his bones. He just had to tell people God’s words. In the end the prophet speaks just like the psalmist – see Jer 20:13. God delivered him from his enemies.
David Simpson [Worcester (UK)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to David
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
V.7 Jeremiah's complaint, not unlike that of Job, expressed human infirmity in consequence of his imprisonment. Thou didst promise never to give me up to the will of mine enemies, and yet Thou hast done so. But Jeremiah misunderstood God's promise, which was not that he should have nothing to suffer, but that God would deliver him out of sufferings (Jer 1:19)
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to John
Vs.1-3 According to Gesenius, Pashur means prosperity everywhere. But there would be no more prosperity for Pashur, or liberation for Judah from the horrors of the Babylonians. Instead there would be terror everywhere, which is the meaning of Magor-missaviv.
Jeremiah was put in stocks to be publicly beaten and humiliated. He would have received forty stripes according to the Law (Deut 25:3). Paul, also, received the same treatment (2Cor 11:24). Jesus would have received a similar beating by the hands of the Romans (John 19:1).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Michael
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Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Michael
PRAISE
Not all of us experience the same oppression as Jeremiah felt. Some of the things he complained to God about were that he was ridiculed all day long; everyone mocked him; he was insulted and reproached all day long; people whispered about him and reported him; even those he thought were his friends were only waiting for him to slip so that they could get the better of him. (Jer 20:7-10)
If we receive one serious insult in a day we find it hard to cope, let alone all day every day like Jeremiah had to cope with.
The thing that impresses me while reading through the words of Jeremiah, is that even in those dark moments, when he was so badly treated, his mind turned to God and he could burst into praise. "Sing to the LORD! Give Praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked," Jeremiah began. (v.13)
Most of us experience nothing like the stresses that Jeremiah had to put up with, and yet even when our minds do turn to God we do not find ourselves bursting into heartfelt thanks and praise. Shame on us!
Let's turn to the LORD more often, focus our minds on him and his eternal promises, and let our lips sing out the praises of our Mighty God.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Robert
20:1-18 Given that Jeremiah was depressed because of the attitude of the people we could say that he, like Jesus would be, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief – Isa 53:3.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
20:9 Once we know the truth we cannot keep it to ourselves. If we do, we become a Pashur rather than a Jeremiah. His encouragement came from the fact that the LORD was with him and in the end his enemies would lose the war.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to John
20:9 Even though Jeremiah did not want to speak the word of God – and would we have wanted to present his message to a rebellious people – he could not help himself speaking. Isn’t that a challenge to you and me?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Peter
V.7 Jeremiah misunderstood Yahweh. Yahweh did not tell Jeremiah that he would not suffer, but He did tell him that He would deliver him from his suffering (Jer 1:19).
We, too, can expect trials, but also deliverance from them (1Cor 10:13).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2008 Reply to Michael
20:17-18 Whilst it is clear Jeremiah is speaking of the people who will not heed the message calling for repentance from them he takes it all very personally and, because of their Godlessness, laments his own existence. Now either he is despondent because his words are not being heard or he is so sad that his fellow Jews are not willing to listen to God. Does the fact that our preaching bears little fruit actually cause us concern – or do we just say ‘it is a sign of the times’ and shrug our shoulders, so to speak?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
SING TO THE LORD!
"Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD!" (Jer 20:18) One would expect words like these to be written or spoken at a high point in life. They are the sort of words we say when everything has gone well and we overflow with thankfulness and joy, wishing to share the moment with everyone else. But it was not that way at all for Jeremiah. To quote the words, "Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD!" as a particularly happy moment in the life of Jeremiah, would be right out of context. Jeremiah's praise was given right after he had been beaten, locked up in the stocks and ridiculed. It was not a happy time. He had been released from the stocks, but the pain from both the beating and the insults from his friends would have still hurt deeply.
Often the deepest and most heartfelt praise comes from the times of the most intense trial. Our lives are not always going to be easy, so we need to make sure we take on Jeremiah's attitude of praise, being able to praise and sing to God in both the good times and the bad. "Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD!" in every circumstance.
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Robert
V.2 The kind of stocks to which Jeremiah was subject, constituted an instrument of torture. The wooden implement consisted of two beams, one of which was movable. There were five holes: for the neck; hands; and feet.
Once the prisoner was inserted into the holes, the movable beam was adjusted so that the prisoner was twisted to a painfully bent position. There he remained confined and crooked in a room set aside for that purpose (2Chron 16:10). In this verse, the term prison house (KJV) literally means house of stocks.
V.9 Jeremiah was peeved at Yahweh’s seeming lack of support. For spite, Jeremiah vowed not to deliver any more messages. However, he could not in all good conscience restrain such a powerful and right message.
Does the unrestrainable burning for the Word reside in us, even though things might not be going so well at any given time (Luke 24:2)?
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
20:9 So here we see the reason why Jeremiah was unable to keep silence, even though he did not want to give the message. He was aware of the fact that God was a deliverer. Surely that is our experience? We recognise that we have been delivered from sin and death. Does this motivate us to talk about that?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
20:7 Jeremiah’s lament that God has deceived him should be seen against the background of God’s promise in Jer 1:8 We then see the powerful effect of the opposition to his message.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
20:10 The way that Jeremiah’s contemporaries were looking for him to fall is matched in the way in which the Jewish leaders watched Jesus to find fault in him.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
20:11 Jeremiah was overwhelmed by the persecution of his enemies - Jer 20:7-10. It was Jeremiah’s confidence in his God that helped him overcome the persecutions. The antidote to opposition is always to reflect on God’s power and steadfastness towards us.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
A mighty, terrible one
If someone asked me what God was like I think I might say He's merciful and forgiving. I might say He shows His creative genius in all of nature, or that He gives us wonderful gifts every day. I came across Jeremiah's way of describing Him today, and I wonder at the contrast between his and my description of God:
"the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors will stumble"
I guess we can be guilty of minimising the breadth and depth of God's character, and thereby making God a caricature, especially when we're trying to present a brief description to people. I wonder whether, to a person who's being persecuted, Jeremiah's description is the most positive possible. To know we have a "mighty and terrible God" looking after us can be enormously comforting. David himself alluded to the same when He said in the famous Psalm:
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Psa 23:4
The rod here may refer to God's ability to defend David, like a shepherd who fights off predators with his staff (see for example Isa 10:5). This is the God we serve, and let's not forget that He is both compassionate to those who serve Him, but mighty and terrible against those who try to harm His children.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Rob
20:14 Feeling that God had deceived him – 20:7 – the prophet now laments even being alive. Spare a thought for the anguish of the prophet. He has spoken the word of God, the people have appeared to respond, but God still judges them as unfaithful because their repentance was all a sham.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
OUTLINE OF JEREMIAH
PART TWO -- THE PROPHECIES TO JUDAH (JEREMIAH 2:1 to 45:5)
I. The Condemnation of Judah (Jeremiah 2:1 to 25:38)
H. Eighth Sermon - Sign of the Potter's House (Jeremiah 18:1 to 20:18):
12. Jer 20:1-6 - Jeremiah and Pashur: Jeremiah went from vase-breaking before the leaders in the Valley of Hinnom to proclaiming the message to the people at the temple and Pashur put him in stocks which fastened and painfully contorted the feet, hands, and neck; V1 "Pashur(<6583> depending on the source may mean freedom, liberation, the multiplier of liberty, or prosperity everywhere)"; V2 "stocks<4115>"; VS 3-4 in renaming Pashur "Magormissabib(<4036> meaning terror on every side, or affright from all around)" Pasher would face terror to himself and to all his friends, his reassuring promises of security would be proven false as God would bring Babylon to conquer Judah and Jerusalem just as Jeremiah foretold; V4 interesting that after Jeremiah's rebuke Pashur didn't additionally punish him; V6 Pashur told people what they wanted to hear and prophesied smooth comforting lies to his friends (similar to Lam 2:14;Isa 30:10;Rom 16:18;Matt 24:11;2Pet 2:1); V6 Pashur and his friends would go into captivity and die in Babylon.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Charles
H. Eighth Sermon - Sign of the Potter's House (Jeremiah 18:1 to 20:18):
13. Jer 20:7-18 - a depressed Jeremiah cries out a complaint to God: VS 7-9 Jeremiah bewails the bitterness of his mission, perhaps he expected that Israel would listen to a true prophet of the Lord, but God had brought him into V8 "reproach<2781>" and "derision<7047>" daily, but as David Simpson notes in his 2005 comments Jeremiah would have kept silent (V9) yet was compelled to speak out unpleasant truths and God delivered him from his enemies (Jer 20:13) - true believers of today who feel compelled to share their hope out of love for their neighbor can face condescension, mocking and sometimes even danger as well; V7 "deceived<6601>" (compare/contrast with Jer 15:16;Jer 1:18); V9 "His Word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones...and I could not stay" (other examples of God's word coming out of bones - Psa 34:20;John 19:36;Eze 37:1-13); V10 the first part is a quote from Psa 31:13 and similar to David's lament who felt like a broken vessel (Psa 31:12); V10 (NIV) "I hear many whispering, 'Terror on every side! [note the irony of 'Terror on every side' to Jeremiah as compared to Jer 20:3] Report him! Let's report him!' All my friends [Jeremiah's familiar friends whom he trusted perhaps an echo of Christ's familiars Psa 41:9;John 13:18;Psa 38:16,17,20] are waiting for me to slip, saying, 'Perhaps he will be deceived; then we will prevail over him and take our revenge on him"'.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Charles
H. Eighth Sermon - Sign of the Potter's House (Jeremiah 18:1 to 20:18):
14. Jer 20:7-18 (con't) - VS 11-13 Jeremiah encourages himself with confidence in God despite adversity; V12 (compare with Jer 11:20); V12 "the reigns<3629>", "the heart<3820>"; V13 (KJV) "he hath delivered<5337> the soul(<5315> NIV "the life") of the poor from the hand of evildoers" (the soul must be mortal else how could it need deliverance from evildoers?); VS 14-18 Jeremiah's breaking point as he curses his day not unlike Job (Job 3:1-11;Job 5:17;Heb 12:3-11;Jer 31:26).
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Charles
20:17-18 We should not think of the prophecy of Jeremiah as only containing words from God to the people. In this chapter Jeremiah has been pilloried in the stocks and now struggles with his emotions – on the one hand he despairs of the persecution whilst on the other hand recognises the majesty and care of his God.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
Rob Cheale [Thornton Heath UK] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Rob
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
20:1-2 So we see one priest abusing another priest. As Pashur was “chief governor” maybe he thought he was above the requirements of the Law of Moses.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
20:7 Jeremiah’s prophecy started during the reign of the god king Josiah and extended to the end of the reign of evil Zedekiah. One could imagine the prophet’s feeling of despair when Josiah was replaced by the remaining evil kings. It may be that he though that he had not been called to such a time as that.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
20:16 Jeremiah sees his birth as such a terrible thing. Try to imagine how depressed Jeremiah was because of the unwillingness of the nation to listen to God’s words
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
20:2 Whilst it is unclear exactly what the “stocks” were we realise that nowhere in the Law of Moses was prison or torture a God directed punishment. Pashur, as a priest, must have known this. It is clear that Pashur had no regard for the laws of God or His words. His behaviour did not match his position. The lesson for us is clear.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
20:12 these words of Jeremiah are part of his lament because of what he is seeing in Jerusalem. Despite their sinful behaviour Jeremiah is not seeing his God intervening. Rather he is experiencing persecution. His prayer is that God will intervene and his own suffering be diminished as a consequence. The reason for the delay in the bringing of the judgment was a consequence of God being “longsuffering” Exo 34:6. Are we as longsuffering towards others that might wrong us?
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
20:2-3 we read over these verses quickly but is we reflect we see Jeremiah sat outside in the stocks overnight, probably cold and very uncomfortable. However the privations he endured did not dampen the message he pronounced.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
20:3 the matter of fact way that we read of Jeremiah, in the morning, being taken out of the stocks belies the suffering that Jeremiah endured. He had been out in the open, bound in an uncomfortable position and left all night in the cold.
We do well to reflect on the significance of simple statement sin scripture for they often open out to present a far more detailed picture if we think of them.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter
6 v. 7 is a wonderful truth of the permanent and glorious change that baptism brings about, so let us dwell on God's mercy and grace for a moment in these passages: Col.3:1-3, 1Pet.4:1, Rom.8:1.
Peter [UK] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
5 v.19 - The word 'made' 2525 can be seen, from its use in the New Testament, to encompass rulership and judgment. Matthew 24:45,47 25:21,23 (made) ruler, Luke 12:14,42,44 (made) judge / rule, Acts 6:3 7:10,27,35 appoint / made, Acts 17:15 conducted Romans 5:19 made, Titus 1:5 ordain, Hebrews 2:7 5:1 7:28 8:3 set / ordained / maketh, James 3:6 4:4 is, 2 Peter 1:8 make. The use in the epistles indicates that, when appointment was made, it was at the father's instigation, not man's.
ch.6 - Parallels between Romans 6 & 7
Dead to sin | Rom.6:2/Rom.7:4 | dead to the law |
know ye not | Rom.6:3/Rom.7:1 | know ye not |
raised from the dead | Rom.6:4/Rom.7:4 | raised from the dead |
once | Rom.6:10/Rom.7:9 | once |
lusts | Rom.6:12/Rom.7:7 | lust |
[shall not have] dominion | Rom.6:14/Rom.7:1 | ... dominion ... |
wages of sin | Rom.6:23/Rom.7:25 | the law of sin |
the gift of God | Rom.6:23/Rom.7:25 | the law of God |
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2001 Reply to Peter
The language of Romans is picked up many times in the New Testament letters - demonstrating that the teaching of the letter has a universal application
while we were sinners Christ died for us
|
1Tim 1:15 | |
offence of one many be dead
|
2Cor 5:14 |
Chapter 6
Here are some more occasions when Romans is quoted in other New Testament books
dead to sin
|
1Pet 2:24, Col 3:3 | |
buried with him by baptism
|
Col 2:12 | |
if we be dead … live with him
|
2Tim 2:11 |
So we see that Paul's instruction about the 'new life' in Christ is not confined to the needs of the Romans.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2002 Reply to Peter
5:14 That men died during the time before the giving of the law of Moses demonstrates that death is not simply a consequence of disobedience to that law. That people died who did not sin in the same way that Adam sinned go to prove that the tendency to death is inherited through our relationship with Adam's nature.
Chapter 5- We must be careful not to think that Christ died for 'good people' - he died for the 'ungodly' (5:6) - 'sinners' (5:8) - 'enemies' (5:10). This should inform us about who we should preach to and where we have come from ourselves.
6:13 The word 'instruments' is more correctly 'weapons'. So we can use our mind and way of thinking to destroy ourselves or to destroy our sinful way of thinking. The 'weapons' can be equally useful whichever way we use them -of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness.
6:4 'newness of life' is developed by Paul (Romans 7:6) We should be alert to the developing use of language within the letters. Paul is seeking to lead the servant of God on to a fuller appreciation of what God has done and what He expects of His servants.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Peter
I wish the word "justified" didn't exist, because it's so misleading! Strong's concordance gives the meaning of the word "to render righteous", so it just means "to be made righteous", and means exactly the same as 4v22.
Once one has realised that righteousness is imputed as a free gift by God, and therefore we are completely freed from having to keep the law (trying to be righteous), the natural question which arises in all our minds is "what? so it doesn't matter if we sin then?" (6v1,15)The rest of these two chapters are Paul trying to deal with this question. In 6v21-23 he sums up his argument by saying "why would you want to turn back to those things from which you have been freed, when you've got so much better a thing to look forward to than the wages of sin?".
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2003 Reply to Rob
5:1 So continuing our theme from yesterday we have peace with God – not because of our own righteousness but because of that which has been imputed to us.
6:12 In saying ‘let not sin reign’ Paul is speaking of conflict. The conflict will not end until the resurrections. If we accept this we will not be surprised when we sin. We will realise that we are ‘counted’ righteous because of our selves we are not righteous.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to Peter
6:23 The choice is between these two; DEATH and LIFE. Scripture recognizes decrees of punishment and of glory, but there is no neutral territory between the end result. LIFE or DEATH. We all must make a choice.
John Wilson [Toronto West (Can)] Comment added in 2004 Reply to John
6:16 We have no righteousness of our own; it is attributed to Yahweh. The righteousness we receive is based upon obedience. True obedience is dependent upon the correct spirit with which it is employed (Psa 32:2; Rom 4:6). If righteous acts are done without the correct spirit, they are not acceptable to Yahweh. This was true for Israel in Isaiah's time (Isa 64:6), as much as it was for the scribes and Pharisees in the time of Christ (Matt 5:20).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Michael
(Rom 5:3-4) - We have listed here in Romans some of the benefits of tribulation/suffering. We all go through some sort of tribulation/suffering in the course of our lives. And certainly some have lives with more challenging circumstances than others. At times we might be sad, discouraged, bitter, angry with life circumstances, etc. and allow them to impair our service to God. On the other hand, we can reap spiritual benefits from suffering. If our lives were to have no hardships perhaps we would be more absorbed in the cares of this world leaving less room, less desire to serve God, and less of an eager yearning for His coming Kingdom.
We see how Job suffered and at the end all who had been of his acquaintance before comforted him (Job 42:11). Perhaps even his adversary/satan was won over. Sometimes tribulation/suffering is for our benefit, sometimes for the benefit of others, sometimes perhaps for a collective group benefit that may be present and/or even future.
Charles Link, Jr. [Moorestown, (NJ, USA)] Comment added in 2005 Reply to Charles
5:20 The law highlighted what sin is. It is not that more wrong was done after the law was given. It was that the law enabled man to see what displeased God as Paul explains in Rom 6:7
6:9 death ‘hath no more dominion over him’ quotes, and explains Psa 19:13 where the faithful servant of God wishes to be delivered from presumptuous sins.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Peter
5:15,19 Popular Christianity believes that Jesus died as a substitute for man's sin. By that understanding, all humankind is saved. Scripture, however, does not agree. God's grace, through Jesus, is extended to many not to all. By the work of the Lord Jesus, many are made righteous, not all.
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2006 Reply to Michael
5:20 Here Paul is redressing the erroneous presentation of his view that some accused him of as recorded in Rom 3:8.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2007 Reply to Peter
5:2 Hope is an essential ingredient in our walk of faith. We hope for eternal life which will release us from the pain of our present experience, and free us to worship Yahweh without any distraction. Unless we have this hope, our experience in Christ is void (Titus 1:2; 3:7).
5:3,4 We will encounter tribulation in this life (1Thess 3:4). But, if we have patience under trial, we will endure (2Thess 1:4). The experience (trust) through endurance will build the character that Yahweh desires in us (1Pet 1:7). That character (trust through experience) will give us the confidence to stand before Jesus when He returns, holding firmly the hope of eternal life (1John 2:28).
5:5 If we build the necessary qualities to stand confidently before Jesus, then our hope (of the Kingdom) is not ashamed (invalid).
And so, let us remember a simple, but effective, formula to guide us on our walk to the Kingdom: Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer (Rom 12:12).
5:6-8 Humankind was without strength (KJV); still weak (ESV). Therefore, humans were not able to deliver themselves from death. Only the sacrifice of Jesus could do that.
However, even after becoming a disciple of Jesus, a person is still unable to save him/herself. He/she is totally reliant on divine power to gain eternal life (Jude 1:24).
5:10,11 Jesus’ death was essential for salvation; but equally important was His resurrection. That is the reason we celebrate both aspects in sharing bread and wine in remembrance of Him.
Because of Jesus’ death and resurrection, we have received the atonement (KJV); received reconciliation (ESV), which brought Yahweh to us (2Cor 5:18,19).
5:15,16 Through Jesus we have received a free gift. We pay nothing except obedience. A great debt has been paid for us, one that is impossible for us to repay: by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross (Col 2:14) (ESV).
Michael Parry [Montreal (Can)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Michael
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2009 Reply to Peter
5:15 The idea of the ‘offence of one many be dead’ is quoted by Paul in 2Cor 5:14. Another example of how the letter to the Romans is used elsewhere in the New Testament.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Peter
The "peace with God" in 5v1 is not the tranquillity kind of peace, but the aftermath of war kind of peace. We are sinful (v8), not "good" or "righteous" (v7), but weak and ungodly (v6). This makes us enemies of God (v8, 10) and subject to His wrath (v9) unless we make peace with Him by taking His offer of reconciliation (v10-11). Looking at the situation in this light may make us less likely to sit on the fence about baptism.
Rob de Jongh [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2010 Reply to Rob
6:4 ‘buried with him by baptism’ is an idea which Paul uses again in Col 2:12. Another example of the letter to the Romans being used in the later inspired writings.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Peter
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life... so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Brother John Thomas clarifies this in Elpis Israel, pages 132-137 - fourteenth edition. He writes: "The apostle then brings to light two sentences, which are co-extensive, but not co-etaneous in their bearing upon mankind. The one is the sentence of condemnation, which consigns 'the many' both Jews and Gentiles, to the dust of the ground; the other is a sentence which affects the same 'many', and brings them out of the ground again to return thither no more.... It is obvious that the apostle is not writing of all the individuals of the human race; but only of that portion of them that become the subject of 'a justification of life', (Greek letters). It is true, that all men do die; but it is not true that they are all the subjects of justification. Those who are justified are 'the many', (Greek letters), who are sentenced to live for ever..."
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2011 Reply to Valerie
“I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.”
E.W. Bullinger in Figures of Speech Used in the Bible writes: “I.e., ‘To [work] iniquity’: and ‘to [work] holiness.’”
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Valerie
6:5 The idea of being ‘in the likeness of his death’ is used again – Phil 3:10. Another example of the letter to the Romans being used in the later inspired writings.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2012 Reply to Peter
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Peter
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?”
One of the most important and beautiful Bible themes is the grace and mercy of God, but like other Biblical themes, this has become a focus of controversy too. One reason people are confused about such matters is that they study only part of what the Bible says and do not put it all together. Another reason is that people ignore certain passages that seem to teach differently from what they have believed and been taught. So they may study certain passages that teach about grace, but then ignore other passages. Like most false doctrines, it contains just enough truth to camouflage the error. The result is confusion. For example:
Universalism claims God’s grace will save everyone; Catholicism claims only they may dispense God’s grace; Calvinism claims God’s grace is extended only to a predestined few whom God unconditionally chooses, regardless of who they are; Protestantism claims grace and faith only will save, and that obedience is not necessary. Various other churches claim obedience is necessary, but after “baptism,” one will remain in God’s grace regardless of their continued disobedience.
We read in John 1:17 that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ; they work together. In John 17:17, we read that God’s word is truth. From this we may confidently deduce that grace works according to God’s word. Only God may extend His grace to whomsoever He will. We may take it upon ourselves to extend God’s grace, or we may limit His grace, but what does God say we must do to receive and stay in His grace?
The Bible contains many examples of people who received God’s blessings by grace, but they had to meet certain conditions. They did not earn the blessing; it was still a matter of grace.
“Grace” is first mentioned in Gen 6:8: “Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD,” and commanded him to build an ark and gave instructions how it was to be built. Noah met the conditions, and he and his family were saved. Noah continued in God's grace by his obedience in meeting the conditions God gave him (cf. 2Cor 6:1; Acts 11:23; cp. Acts 13:43).
God gave Jericho to Israel. To take the city, the people had to march around Jericho once each day and seven times on the seventh day, blow their horns and shout. This took faith (Heb 11:30). If they had not met these conditions, they would not have received grace, or favour from God. It was conditional. Heb 10:39; 11:6 illustrate the kind of faith God is pleased with and to be saved by His grace. Again, we cannot earn it, but there are conditions that must be met.
Elisha told Naaman to dip seven times in the Jordan River for his leprosy to be cured (2Kin 5:9-14). It was not the waters of the Jordan that healed him. Naaman was obedient, met the conditions and grace was extended to him by God.
With only 300 men, Gideon defeated an innumerable host of Midianites. Did they earn God’s unmerited favour, or grace? No, but, there were specific conditions from God they met and grace was extended to them (Judg 7:1-22).
The Old Testament examples illustrate New Testament salvation by grace through faith. Both require conditions that must be met (cf. Gen 19:19; Rom 15:4; 1Pet 3:20-21). If grace is unconditional, then everyone will be saved, but this contradicts passages in Matt 7:13-14,21-23; Matt 25:14-46; 2Thess 1:6-12). It is the false doctrine of UNIVERSALISM. The fact that many will be lost is to acknowledge that grace is conditional – not universal.
By faith we have access to God`s grace (Rom 5:2), but there are conditions, which we must meet (Rom 3:22-26; Rom 4:16). We read in Rom 10:17 that “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Grace must never be taken for granted or abused, because if we do, then we cheapen God’s grace. Grace is not synonymous with mercy. While the terms have similar meanings, they are not the same. Grace is extending kindness, an unmerited favour; mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve. Instead of judgment, we receive salvation by His grace (cf. Heb 4:16).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2013 Reply to Valerie
5:21 Sin reigned unto death. The counterpart is that “grace” will reign through “righteousness”. Through God’s righteousness He will be gracious. The way we can be reconciled is highlighted by our sinfulness being recognised by a gracious God who is willing to forgive.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2014 Reply to Peter
5:14,17 The idea of death reigning forces us to see sin as a ruler, as a king, who would like to demand our submission to it.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Peter
Rom 5:12-14 – the nature of Christ
“Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:… Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come (Christ).
Luke 3 gives us the genealogy of Christ as descended from Adam, therefore, Christ was born with a sinful nature; otherwise, this passage of Scripture would be wrong!
A newborn infant who has never committed sin can die. Why? Because of the baby’s sinful nature inherited from Adam (cf. Psa 51:5). Christ could not have died if he did not have sinful flesh inherited from his mother, and if he did not die then our faith is in vain (1Cor 15:12-18)! These Scriptures would be wrong!
Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). Christ was made in the likeness of men (Phil 2:7,8). “Likeness” means “in like manner,” as we. If Christ did not come in the likeness of men - us, who are made in the likeness of Adam after he sinned, these Scripture passages would be wrong!
Christ partook of the same flesh as we, human flesh and blood (Heb 2:14) Flesh and blood describes a mortal being (cf. Lev 17:11). Sin is synonymous for death (Rom 6:23). When Christ rose from the dead he became flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). If Christ did not partake of the same flesh as us, these Scriptures would be wrong!
God, Himself, made Christ to be sin for us that we may become the righteousness of God in him (2Cor 5:21; cf. Isa 53). We know Christ did not commit sin, so then what was his sin? – his sinful human nature! Christ suffered and had to die for himself too because he bore the same sinful human nature with us. To believe otherwise, these Scriptures would be wrong and a direct contradiction of innumerable Scripture passages, including Acts 4:12, as we can be saved only through Christ! As our High Priest, he had to save himself first, sacrificing himself for himself, before he could save others (cf. Lev 9:8-16) Heb 7:24-28 proves the analogy. Psa 91:16 shows that Christ needed salvation. The “length of days” plus, “show him my salvation,” are one clause, long life referring to the ultimate salvation - immortality. Christ died a young man, so we know long life in this verse did not mean old age in terms of natural years (cf. Isa 53:10).
If these Bible passages are all wrong and Christ did not have a sinful nature as taught by some, then we can forget about the Bible being the Holy Spirit inspired and infallible word of God. If this is true, we are wasting our time; we might as well live as the Romans who during one of their celebrations before going to battle toasted: “Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.”
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Valerie
A reader writes: “… Did Christ have to atone for his sinful nature? … the Bible says the wages of sin is death, not the wages of a sinful nature is death... ?”
My reply: The issue of clean flesh and the Atonement really cannot be separated, as one affects the other. The sacrifice for the atonement for sins had to be “without blemish.” When the Israelites brought a sacrifice to the LORD, they had to lay their hand on the head of the sacrifice and confess their sin. This action symbolized the transfer of sin to the offering and rendered the animal fit to atone for the sin of the offerer (Lev 1:4). Keep this in mind, as I will elaborate on this further down.
Even if you want to separate Christ’s “no need for atonement since he had no sins to atone for” (which is incorrect in and of itself as it totally disregards his fallen human nature as taught in the Bible), there are several passages in Scripture, which speak of our sins being “laid upon” Christ, and of his “bearing” sin/iniquity (Isa 53:6,12; 2Cor 5:21; Gal 3:13; Heb 9:28; 1Pet 2:24. On the basis of Scripture, our sins were imputed to Christ. This does not mean that our sinfulness was transferred to him, but that the guilt of our sin was imputed to him. Christ suffered, “the righteous for the unrighteous” (1Pet 3:18).
It is wrong scripturally and morally to claim that uncommitted sin cannot be personally transmitted. This contradicts Scripture. In addition, Christ’s very nature being mortal required atonement before receiving immortality.
Christ had to atone for our sins laid upon him (2Cor 5:21). Christ knew the purpose for which he was created, and though “straitened” till all was accomplished, and though it was the will of his Father, he still had a choice (cf. John 10:18). Like Moses, he could have chosen to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season, or chosen to do the will of the Father. The Father still judged His son, though he did not commit sin. Christ died for our actual committed sins without repenting of those sins since he did not commit them. I think we fail to see this. Consider this that if Christ had not been obedient, he would have sinned and would not have been able to atone for himself or us; he would not have received immortality! How can anyone claim that Christ was a sinless natured being? Did Christ not die? Christ had the propensity to sin because of his very human sinful inherited nature. If angels with sinless natures could die, what hope is there for us when immortalized, and still have the propensity to sin and die? It is ridiculous, yet this is what it comes to. It does not make sense.
The sacrificial animals in their death took the place of the death due to the offerer. Though the animal was without blemish, it still had a fallen nature as they are under the curse too (Gen 3:14). It was “forfeit for forfeit.” These sacrifices were pre-figurations of the one great sacrifice of Christ. Note Rom 5:14 tells us: “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come (Christ).” For Christ to have died, sin had to have “reigned” in his flesh even though he had “not sinned.” This required to be atoned for. Consider also Heb 9:28: “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he (Christ) appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” What sin? Christ did not commit any. When Christ returns, unlike the first time, he will come without a sinful human nature, having conquered it. If this had not been the case, why would the apostle Paul state that when Christ returns he will do so, “without sin”? It would be non-sequitur! Sin is sin, and the phrase, “the wages of sin is death” is not limited to only committed sins and to claim Christ did not need to atone for himself because he did not commit sin is wresting Scripture.
The problem is some abandon the plain teachings of Scripture that require comparing Scripture with Scripture for answers, and substitute a variety of complex and contradictory teachings and by fleshly reasoning and “logic,” confuse and destroy the basic concept of Christ’s Atonement.
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2015 Reply to Valerie
5:17 The contrast is amazing. Whilst one man brought death upon all one man (Jesus) brought to light eternal life – an end of death. Humanly speaking one might have expected each man who was a sinner and bound to die to earn salvation by a change of behaviour. But no. In prospect eternal life is available through the efforts of one man.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2016 Reply to Peter
6:14 The way I which sin is not to dominate our lives echoes David’s concern in Psa 119:133 where he sees being instructed in the word of God as the antidote to be a slave of iniquity.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Peter
Nick Kendall [In Isolation] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Nick
“… For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law...”
The word Paul used here for imputed is ellogeo, # <1677>, “… put on account…”
The only other place this word is used is found in Philem 1:18, “put,” # <1677> wherein Paul said to charge anything Onesimus owed him to his [Paul’s] account. The Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) reads: “For what law brings is punishment. But where there is no law, there is no violation [of the Law].”
Imputed is incorrectly translated here by the translators and so entered in Strong’s. The actual word for imputed is logizomai, # <3049>, “… to take an inventory, i.e. estimate…” What the apostle Paul said in v. 13 is that where there is no law, people cannot be charged with breaking it.
There are those who will quote Acts 17:30 that God winked at sins up until Christ! This is a false teaching and totally taken out of context because God never winks at sin! Winked is hupereido # <5237>, “to overlook, not punish.” What did God overlook? He overlooked the ignorance (v. 23), but now commanded everyone to come to a knowledge of the known, living God and worship Him His way, and no other way, because there is a day appointed for Judgment (v. 31). We have no excuse to remain ignorant today!
Even before the Law of Moses was given, people sinned, but were not accountable to the Law since it did not exist until given at Sinai to Moses. It does not mean no other laws existed and no accountability to such laws (v. 14). When Paul wrote “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Rom 4:15), he did not mean that before the Law of Moses people could live any way they wanted. If this were true, how would we account for God’s judgment in Gen 6? Gentiles who didn’t have the Law, sinned (cf. Gen 13:13; Luke 12:48; Rom 2:12-14;). If there really was no law and could not be charged with sin, would it have been fair for God to charge them in not keeping what they did not know anything about? There were always some forms of laws under God and under the government they lived to which they were accountable (cf. Rom 13). It did not always refer to the 10 Commandments, either. Many more laws were given by God since. Furthermore, it is important to state that God’s laws are not retroactive. These did not sin, though, the same way as Adam did who broke God’s direct stated command to him. Nevertheless, as descended from Adam we are all guilty sinners even before God instituted His Civil, Ceremonial, and Moral laws. (cf. Rom 2:12-16).
No transgression does not mean, “no sin.” Transgression, # <3847>,parabasis, means “violation” Sin, # <266>, hamartia, “to err, sin, offence, faults, trespass [cf. from # <264>]. Should we transgress a certain given law, we sin (1John 3:4) even if in ignorance (cf. Lev 4:2; Num 15:25). By nature, we are sinners, as well as by acts (cf. Matt 15:19). Sin is more than a violation of the 10 Commandments (cf. Rom 14:23; 1John 5:17; James 4:17), and has its roots in the heart, which influences the mind, and finds expression through our words and deeds (Matt 15:19,20; Heb 3:12; James 1:14,15).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Valerie
Nick Kendall [In Isolation] Comment added in 2017 Reply to Nick
5:6 We, like Abraham, are weak in our own strength. But Abraham was not weak in faith – Rom 4:19. We should have our strength I faith, not our own strength
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Peter
“For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even those that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression…”
Before the Law was given on Mount Sinai to Moses, sin was already in the world (cf. v. 12). The apostle Paul is not implying that people who have not heard of the Ten Commandments or Christ’s Commandments (cf. John 7:16) are not sinners! Sin was already in the world long before the Mosaic Law and after.
Adam and Eve sinned (Gen 3), Cain sinned against Divine Law when he slew his brother (Gen 4:8); the flood was brought on because the “wickedness of man was great in the earth” (Gen 6:5). There was the “iniquity of the Amorites” (Gen 15:16), and the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was “very grievous” (Gen 18:20; cf. Eze 16:48-50. The wickedness of Nineveh came up before God (Jon 1:2). There were the sins of the Gentiles (Rom 1) who are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1,2). The sins of Babylon reach unto heaven (Rev 18:5).
In short, there were Laws from the very beginning – God’s Moral Laws, which are based on His Divine character and were written into the laws of the Mosaic Covenant! Those outside of the Mosaic Law and those not in Christ were viewed as sinners and judgments executed accordingly. It is inevitable that all stood and stand related to the Divine Moral Laws to this very day, be they without or within.
Baptized into Christ, we are identified as “priests,” (1Pet 2:5). The Old Testament priests did more than just offer sacrifices for the people (Lev 10:10,11). They were also called upon to be moral and spiritual leaders to the people! While Mal 2:1-9 were aimed at spiritually lax priests, it shows us what to look for in spiritually active priests (cf. Neh 13:29).
These responsibilities are passed on to us (Eph 4:11-13). But, before we can fulfill our responsibilities to ourselves and each other, we need heart transformation not behaviour modification, as the world teaches (cf. Rom 2:29)! This is to live and teach as our Creator designed us to, and are the primary requirements in doing so (cf. 1Tim 4:16).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2018 Reply to Valerie
6:17 When Paul writes of “doctrine … delivered unto you” he is speaking of a written document that they had received. Consider the way the word “delivered” is sued in Matt 27:26, Acts 15:30. The first speaks of a physical handing over of a person. The second of a physical handing over of a written document
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Peter
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Scripture tells us that it was one man that brought sin and death into the world. We further read in v. 18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation…” All human beings are related, because they are all descendants of the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, the mother of all living (Gen 3:20; cf. Mark 10:6). Paul tells us that “the first man Adam was made a living soul…” (1Cor 15:45), and in Acts 7:26 that God, “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth…” We see the pattern that from one, the first Adam, came death upon all, and from one, the last Adam, all may be resurrected to life (Rom 5:18).
This being the case, the idea that there were pre-Adamic men who died unaffected by Adam’s sin is not supported by Scripture. Although we believe and accept the record of “In the beginning,” some also accept the evolutionists’ old-age world before “the beginning,” having been destroyed because the people became so wicked. This interpretation is based on fossil records and the Gap Theory.
Between Gen 1:1,2, we are told billions of years passed, some even claiming that multiple hybrid civilizations still living on other planets managed to escape earth’s destruction, since there are aliens visiting us! In other words, death did not come since Adam, but before Adam! It is puzzling how anyone would allow themselves to be influenced by such fantasy instead of accepting the literal interpretation of the text of the Bible. It causes confusion when we depart from the text of the Bible and allow others to dictate to us their hypothetical interjections between verses to make their theories and beliefs fit.
Is anything too hard for the LORD, the God of all flesh? (Gen 18:14; Jer 32:27; cf. Luke 18:27). Is it really that hard to believe in seven consecutive days, seven 24 hour days, the seventh being a rest from creation and typed the Sabbath of rest (Gen 2:2,3; Heb 4:4; cf. Exo 20:11)? God didn’t even need six days, but He chose to do so to show us His orderly manner of doing things, and to demonstrate the need for us to rest, the literal six days being juxtaposed with the seventh (cf. Matt 11:28,29).
The scientific method operates in the physical realm; the LORD operates outside the material realm, which cannot be explained away in the physical. It is so crushing to think how some mar our Father’s beautiful act of creation and plan of salvation - all for us through His son, that we may enter into that rest (Heb 4:9-11).
Valerie Mello [in isolation, TN, USA] Comment added in 2019 Reply to Valerie
5:11 we might struggle to explain atonement but when we consider the same word <2643>. Elsewhere in the NT we are helped. It relates to being reconciled as these other uses of the word show Rom 11:15 and , 1Cor 5:18,19
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Peter
COMPARE IT
There are pros and cons to everything. Even when it comes to serving God. Listen:"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death." (Rom 6:20-21).
So here is your opportunity to compare: What are the real and lasting benefits of living an ungodly life compared to a life in Christ?
I heard the story of a young woman who experienced this time of evaluation at a woman's retreat. She had done it all: alcohol, drugs, men, parties, violence, bad language, more men ... and was invited to go to a Bible retreat for women. Her comment on the retreat was that the other women were all so different. There was no alcohol, their language was different, their attitudes were different, they dressed different, but, she said, they were all having fun - without any alcohol or drugs to help.
That was when she decided that she wanted to be like that too. She saw that there were no benefits to the life she had lived, but that a life in Christ was fulfilling, joyful and had promise for the future.
Can the here and now really compare to the promises of God?
Robert Prins [Auckland - Pakuranga - (NZ)] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Robert
6:6 The phrase, “that the body of sin might be destroyed” echoes Daniel when, concerning the beast, he writes of, “his body destroyed” (Dan. 7:11).
Nigel Bernard [Pembroke Dock UK] Comment added in 2020 Reply to Nigel
5:5 Being “not ashamed” because of the hope we can have in Christ echoes the situation of Adam and Eve before they sinned – Gen 2:5
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2021 Reply to Peter
5:2 We might ask “What is your vision of the future?” People without a vision perish – Prov 29:18. The vision held by faithful believers is substantial and guaranteed by the resurrection of Jesus – the hope of sharing God’s nature – 2Pet 1:4. Keep that vision bright. It will help in the struggle to do His will.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2022 Reply to Peter
5:3 If we truly appreciate that God is working our lives so that we can develop a mind like His then we will truly “rejoice” in the events in our lives – even the one that we find difficult. Sadly it is all too easy for us to complain when things do not go as we would like.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2023 Reply to Peter
6:6 The term “old man” here is not used in the sense it is often used in Scripture – that is to denote someone of advanced years. Rather “old man” is contrasted with the one who has become “new” having been baptised into Jesus. The two ideas are used together in Col 3:9-10.
Peter Forbes [Mountsorrel (UK)] Comment added in 2024 Reply to Peter